[Basic] Skill of the week: Camouflage

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Under what conditions does Camo grant a -1 to be hit?

From my interpretation of the RAW, if you roll a critical success, you've camouflaged yourself so well that opponents have a "permanent" -1 to see you - and thus hit you in combat - even after you've been seen and spotted. Basically, your margin of success remains their penalty to spot you, and if they succeed despite that penalty they've only spotted a rough outline of you, and not you directly. Therefore, they still have a -1 to see what you're doing and hit you in combat. But that "permanent" penalty only applies while you remain in that one spot you hid and camouflaged yourself in. As soon as you move, it's a new roll to hide again, and thus it's gone.

Personally, I view this as roughly the same of "knowing position within 1 yard" which is normally translated into a -4 penalty when we're talking darkness or invisibility type effects. So knowing where someone is standing because you see his cigarette give you a -4, and knowing that he's in that bush and "I can sorta see him" gives you a -1. Is that balanced? Should they both be -4? I don't know. I've been using the -1, but I have to say a critical success on Camouflage hasn't come up often in my games... and when they do, the PC haven't been spotted so it was a moot point.

[dcarson]

I remember seeing a show on a sniper school, I forget if it was US or British military. The trainees final exam involved on shot then an instructor moved to within 10 yards of you. If the targets spotted you before you got a second clean shot in you failed. That was using ghillie suits. The extra time bonus probably applies in many cases, there was also a discussion of crossing open ground where they might allocate 5-6 hours for 100 yard stretch.

[Otaku]

Reading some of the comments, the following seemed relevant:

Originally Posted by Basic Set Characters p. 183

Depending on the circumstances, successful camouflage might hide its subject entirely or merely blur its outlines to make it harder to hit (-1 to attacker's skill).

So reading that, once you're spotted (and if your camouflage was good to begin with), your opponent is at a -4 not because they know you're there but can't see you, but because the specifics of your body shape are being obscured; this seems similar to the lowest level of the Blur spell (p. B250). Though you know where the target is at, the exact position (and hit location) you are truly targeting is obscured. Even when you're going for a dead center torso strike (no penalty), you have the penalty because what you thought was dead center is not.

I'd actually be tempted to increase specific hit location penalties, or just require rolling it at random, but that is me.

[DanHoward]

If anyone has access to the old Pyramid archives then this article will be of help.
http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=5603

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

If anyone has access to the old Pyramid archives then this article will be of help.
http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=5603

I have the archives and have retrieved it. I'll write a summary of its rules, hopefully tomorrow.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by johndallman

I have the archives and have retrieved it. I'll write a summary of its rules, hopefully tomorrow.

OK, much of that article got into 4e, but the point we're looking for goes like this.

Camouflage is intended to fool someone who's looking for something odd, either because that's what he's there for, or because he got some clue that something was wrong, like noise from a failed Stealth roll. It doesn't work while you're moving, you use Stealth for that. When you stop, someone who's looking for you has to beat your Camouflage in a quick contest with his Vision to spot you. Lots of modifiers to the Vision roll are listed in the article, ones that I haven't tagged as 4e are new to it AFAIK.

• +10 In plain sight, as 4e.
• Darkness penalties, as 4e.
• Size modifier, as 4e.
• Range penalties, reducible with Telescopic Vision, as per 4e.
• A prepared camouflaged position gives -1, which can be increased by taking extra time in the usual way.
• Terrain gives -0 for a flat desert, brushland -3, rocky hills -5, up to -7 for dense jungle.
• Obstructions: -1/50 yards for light mist or open woods; -1/20 yards for heavy rain or light snow; -1/5 yards for fog, blizzard or dense foliage; -1/yard for dense smoke or steam.
• Distractions: up to -4 for having to do other things.
• Experience: +1 for any points in Camouflage, or +2 for Camouflage at 14+.

If the person looking wins the quick contest by less than 5, his attacks on you are at -1 in addition to all other modifiers.

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by johndallman

• Distractions: up to -4 for having to do other things.

.

As you saw in my house rules, I reversed this. I changed the default In Plain Sight bonus to +6 instead of +10, and then give a +4 if you concentrate. I did this because I assume in many situations (most ambushes, surprises, etc.) the people aren't specifically looking for the ambush, so, at least in my games, the +6 is used more often than the +10. Plus, it makes it compatible with combat, specifically requiring a Concentrate maneuver to get the +4.

Originally Posted by johndallman

• Experience: +1 for any points in Camouflage, or +2 for Camouflage at 14+.

If adapting this to 4E, I'd just replace this with the Complementary Skill rules. +1 on success, +2 on critical success, and -1 on critical failure.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by johndallman

OK, much of that article got into 4e, but the point we're looking for goes like this.

Camouflage is intended to fool someone who's looking for something odd, either because that's what he's there for, or because he got some clue that something was wrong, like noise from a failed Stealth roll. It doesn't work while you're moving, you use Stealth for that.

Yet it appears that when one is stationary, one doesn't need to use Stealth at all, and can use just Camouflage (DF16:WI37-38). So the failed Stealth roll has to be from moving.

[johndallman]

Dr Kromm gave answers, which are FAQ'ed here.