House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

Stephen Day · 03-16-2008, 02:40 AM

Hi, I've been lurking for awhile since I signed up. I posted one message, but this is the first thread I've started.

I've found the biggest problem with trying to use the information from GURPS Cabal in Infinite Worlds is that Cabal was written with the idea that the universe the book described was the only one. As a result I've had to come up with some house rules to make the two sources work together.

There is No Such Thing as a No Man Area

That all existence flows from the Decans (and originally from the realm of Briah) and that everything is made of magic is one of the main thoughts that Cabal magic is based on. This simply isn't campatible with the thought that places can exist where there is no magic.

I decided that Infinity only thinks that these place are without magic. They are instead areas of extreme low mana. Magic will work, but all spells work only at a basic ritual level. The magic user must also have at least one correspondence connecting him to the decan that corresponds to the appropriate spell college. Something the Cabal of course knows.

The Cabal Seeks to Control Magic

This is the strongest theme in GURPS Cabal and one I've struggled with in trying mesh with Infinite Worlds.

The first decision I made is that everyone is naturally attuned to only two colleges. Everyone may cast spells from all colleges, but any spell from outside the character's natural colleges requires that the character have at least one correspondence in his possession. This seems to satisfy the theme that the Cabal understands how magic works in ways that outsiders don't

The second decison I made was that given it's 5000 year history in the Infinite Worlds, the Cabal would have plenty of time to control and hide the existence of any colleges they deemed to be dangerous. Gate spells and Communication and Empathy spells are therefore unavailable to PCs outside of a Cabal based campaign.

I just wanted to get an idea from other more experienced GMs about all of this. Will this work? Is there anything I might have overlooked?

Fred Brackin · 03-16-2008, 08:03 AM

It was 3e but when I/we worked Infinity and the Cabal (as they were then) into a multi-dimensional campaign the basic theme that covered both of them was that they were geographically minor players who didn't know nearly as much as they thought they did.

In short, neither of them had much of a window into "universal" ("multiversal?") truth. There's no particular need to reconcile their worldviews. Both were only correct on a very restricted basis.

transmetahuman · 03-16-2008, 09:44 AM

If I ever did this, I'd probably go with something like Fred said. It's too limiting to the feel of IW to force Cabal's system of magic on every world - Technomancer's Merlin, for example, has Oz particles tied to radioactivity and necromancy.

I think it's better if the set of worlds that IW can access parachronically, and the set the Cabal can access magically, are overlapping but not identical.

I've thought about the implications of having a different physics in each world - what happens to the molecules in your body when you translate to a world where the rules of nature include phlogiston and steampunk gear, for instance? I've got the beginnings of an overarching "meta-metaphysics" framework that can explain it all, but it wouldn't be to many peoples' taste I think - I intend to use it only as deep background that the characters will never know, only to help rule on the effects of genre mish-mash.

Stephen Day · 03-16-2008, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

It was 3e but when I/we worked Infinity and the Cabal (as they were then) into a multi-dimensional campaign the basic theme that covered both of them was that they were geographically minor players who didn't know nearly as much as they thought they did.

In short, neither of them had much of a window into "universal" ("multiversal?") truth. There's no particular need to reconcile their worldviews. Both were only correct on a very restricted basis.

True that would be easier, but having a powerful Cabal adds a certain back ground flavour to the Infinite Worlds that I really like. I've used them as background pieces in a couple of one night games I've run and my players have mentioned that they like it as well.

Of course having made that choice, I then had to come up with these house rules. I don't want them or what they can and can't do to become inconsistant. I already see that that could be a problem even after only having used them in such a limited way.

Fred Brackin · 03-16-2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Day

True that would be easier, but having a powerful Cabal adds a certain back ground flavour to the Infinite Worlds that I really like.

<shrug> We didn't use Infinite Worlds much. It was much too restrictive a framework for what we were doing.

We didn't go much for the Cabal as being "powerful" either. They may have come close to controlling magic on a Low Mana World where it was a secret, but there were all these loons trying to become immortal and none of them even knew the Halt Aging spell.

Decanic magic was fascinating but the Cabal itself was largely pointless.

isf · 03-16-2008, 10:33 PM

I've been thinking about how the Cabal interacts with worlds with mana levels and will probably use the following model.

The Cabal's magic system relies on creating a resonance between the caster and the decanic field in Briah; I'm interpreting this to mean that for cabalistic purposes, the base mana levels for the different realms are integral to the realms (Assiah is always considered Low Mana even on worlds that have a higher or lower mana level) except when changed as per Cabal. [this is comparable to drawing on the Pattern in Amber or the Logrus in the Courts]

Some denizens of the higher Realms (Qlippoth, Demons, Eikones) can grant powers to individuals or groups that will also work in most places [like the Broken Patterns].

The Aethyrs can grant cosmic powers that work everywhere [lke the Primal Pattern].

Worlds (in Assiah) with mana present (low to wild) often develop magical traditions and techniques that may be unique to their particular world (or more likely to a similar set of worlds). This would be like using native sorcery or a source like the Keep of Four Worlds. Game mechanically, a mage travelling to worlds with similar power structures (ie magery and spells) would take familiarity penalties.

If the local magic is expressed differently (magery and Ritual Magic, Ritual Magic 3E, CF magic as examples of different powers structures); the mages might have to learn the new magic system.

Mana Enhancer would work differently for different types of magics and I'd probably require a version of specialized for most games that would feature world hopping. A Cabalists ME would usually represent an innate connection with a higher realms [like being present on both realms at once] or a strong attunement to a specific decan or planet.

quarkstomper · 03-17-2008, 10:34 AM

Back when I was running an INFINITE WORLDS campaign, I had my group encounter a member of the Cabal who wound up becoming a regular NPC; (my wife's character thought he was cute). But he was from a world where the American Revolution was being fought with magic and I could not decide whether the Cabal that the NPC came from was actually a trans-dimensional conspiracy, or rather this world's analogue to a conspiracy that exists independantly on other worlds. It never became a big plot point, so I never had to resolve the question.

I decided that the NPC would be able to use magic on Homeline, but only by performing a ritual involving the shedding of some of his own blood -- basically burning a hit point -- to temporarily raise the mana level in his immedeate area. He kept this a secret from the PCs as long as possible; he didn't want them to know that he was not completely powerless on Homeline.

The world he came from was an interesting one. He'd been sent to accompany General Gates to America in order to kill Benjamin Franklin who had stolen sorcerous secrets from the Cabal during his stay in England. Great fun. I probably should develop that world a bit more someday...

demonsbane · 03-21-2008, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jspade

(...) The Infinite Worlds are all part of Assiah, and are connected through Yetzirah (but the barrier is impermeable on no-mana worlds). Thus, for example, while Oberon withdrew from contact with Assiah in most realities, some parallels may still have a corporeal faerie.

That implies a initial Chain of Being splitting itself "infinitely" at the ontological degree of Yetzirah. Because the Tree of Life is only one and it never expands itself horizontally, that would be incompatible with the Kabbalah.

My purpose in this post is to show Infinite Worlds assumptions don't agree with real world Kabbalistic doctrine nor cosmology, but instead remain entirely inside of the domain of science fiction.

And that is the place of its various inconsistences.

But of course, no one can forbid others from working for their enjoyment a entirely fictional cosmology entirely inconsistent (or lacking of true relation) with any real world beliefs, making the game weirder and funnier if that suits the tastes of the players . . .

BTW, this is extremely fnord.

(1) The Kabbalistic "Tree of Life" corresponds exactly with the chain of Being, the perpendicular Axis mundi or Celestial Ray, and it is a symbolic portion of the hindu sutratma.

(2) The "point" where the golden chain cuts trough is "The Garden", "Eden", "the Paradise", "The Holy Temple" (or Palace), "Holy Land", or the Center of the World. The ontological intersection where the horizontizontal plane is passively touched by the active Celestial Ray or chain is portrayed in Genesis by the four rivers of Eden, being symbolic for the horizontal directions of space (north-south-east-west) along a horizontal plane: "And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads". (Genesis 1:10).
_____"East, West, height, depth, North, South, with the holy temple in the middle, sustaining all things." (Sepher Yetzirah IV:2)
Height and depth are here the two "sections" (upper and lower) of the Chain of Being, constituting between all them the six directions of space (4e Fantasy: Above and Below, p. 40).

(3) And from a metaphysical viewpoint, the very Absolute isn't different of the very Chain of the Being or sutratma (literally "the thread of the Absolute"), being it unique (and never multiple), too: "O Arjuna, there is nothing higher than Brahman. Everything in the universe is strung on Brahman like jewels on the thread of a necklace." (Bhagavad-Gitâ, VII, 7)

(4) Being too the origin of the different cosmic regions or "worlds" vertically strung in it. Again: "Everything in the universe is strung on Brahman like jewels on the thread of a necklace." (Bhagavad-Gitâ, VII, 7). In Kabbalah, the fundamental division of Four worlds along the chain of Being, doesn't excludes the reality of a indefinite number of non-specified "worlds" or ontological states of the being different than the material one.

(5) Unfortunately, that seems to be other of the impossible assumptions of GURPS Infinite Worlds:
_____"While roaming across the Infinite Worlds, both Cabalists and harderheaded Patrolmen have encountered all manner of “gods,” (...). Every so often, they meet a god who meets the more traditional definition – a transcendent entity of immense supernatural power." (IW, "Active Gods" box, p. 69)
_____While "gods" in a polytheistic sense is applicable to all sorts of transcendent beings, devas, angels . . . native to worlds higher than the corporeal and astral one (Briah's spiritual domain), and their multiplicity does implies a degree of relativity being able to match with these paragraph along with Kabbalah (translating "gods" as "angels" due its monotheist language), the same isn't possible to guess about "God" or Atziluth, the "god who meets the more traditional definition - a trascendent entity of inmense supernatural power".
_____A inconsistency here is Infinite Worlds not talking about "the god who meets the more traditional definition", but about people finding different entities of this sort, every so often, implying plurality of Absolutes, hence, "relative absolutes!".
_____BTW, no horizontal exploration of such "Infinite Worlds" by harderheaded Patrolmen could draw them near to that "entity" for "meeting it"; that would need an upwards displacement from Assiah to Yetzrirah, from Yetzirah to Briah, and from Briah to Atziluth or "God", leaving the material body behind, at least trough Proyection.

demonsbane · 03-23-2008, 11:44 AM

It is easy to understand the Kabbalistic take about the planets can be viewed as outrageously absurd from our current viewpoint. And any straightforward try to make both of them compatible only can be wrong (1).

However, that apparent absurd can be viewed as a paradox, only solved from the utmost metaphysical point of view (2) involving the nature of perception. It is exactly a koan.

This is in line with the subject:

"The Sword Bridge, or the bridge so narrow and sharp that to cross it is to be cut in half (or to fall to the Abyss), is a common theme in shamanic initiation and in later legendry. Sir Lancelot must cross a Sword Bridge into the kingdom of Gore (...) Iroquois ghosts must cross and impossibily narrow bridge to the Afterlife (...)
_____(Suppressed Transmission II, p. 122, note 5)

Metaphysical knowledge is sometimes symbolized by walking along that impossibily narrow and sharp edge. In this context "being cut in half" means to fall in a partial and dualistic understanding of reality, or put in other words: to fail the quest. In this case, both "halfs" are the incompatible Kabbalistic and modern science takes about the subject (3).

(1) That is the reason why GURPS Infinite Worlds fails in trying to be a "universal generic setting" for GURPS.
_____True, GURPS is a universal multi-genre roleplaying system, but it needs to take each setting and genre separately, not all of them simultaneously. Fantasy, being the modern fictional expression of most ancient world-views, along with its characteristic Worlds Within Worlds vertical cosmology -shared by Kabbalah-, can't be consistently combined with Science Fiction approaches. Not in the same setting.

(2) Metaphysics is the domain "beyond all opposition", and that does include the opposition between the Kabbalistic "spiritual" nature of planets, and the materialistic one portrayed by modern astronomy.

(3 Kabbalistic cosmology, however, wasn't an end on itself but a path to the goal of Atziluth: the metaphysical domain of the Absolute. In that point, the entire Tree of Life, Briah, Yetzirah and Assiah, along with the diverse vertically aligned planetary worlds or ontological states had to be leaved forever "behind", entirely transcended. Differently than that, modern science is "closed" in itself, being unable to provide any path for what it is actively denying.

David Johnston2 · 03-23-2008, 01:12 PM

Yeah...whatever. In any case, it's safe to posit that No-Mana worlds actually do have mana. It's just that for one reason or another it isn't amenable to being manipulated.

03-16-2008, 02:40 AM	#1
Stephen Day Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada	House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds Hi, I've been lurking for awhile since I signed up. I posted one message, but this is the first thread I've started. I've found the biggest problem with trying to use the information from GURPS Cabal in Infinite Worlds is that Cabal was written with the idea that the universe the book described was the only one. As a result I've had to come up with some house rules to make the two sources work together. There is No Such Thing as a No Man Area That all existence flows from the Decans (and originally from the realm of Briah) and that everything is made of magic is one of the main thoughts that Cabal magic is based on. This simply isn't campatible with the thought that places can exist where there is no magic. I decided that Infinity only thinks that these place are without magic. They are instead areas of extreme low mana. Magic will work, but all spells work only at a basic ritual level. The magic user must also have at least one correspondence connecting him to the decan that corresponds to the appropriate spell college. Something the Cabal of course knows. The Cabal Seeks to Control Magic This is the strongest theme in GURPS Cabal and one I've struggled with in trying mesh with Infinite Worlds. The first decision I made is that everyone is naturally attuned to only two colleges. Everyone may cast spells from all colleges, but any spell from outside the character's natural colleges requires that the character have at least one correspondence in his possession. This seems to satisfy the theme that the Cabal understands how magic works in ways that outsiders don't The second decison I made was that given it's 5000 year history in the Infinite Worlds, the Cabal would have plenty of time to control and hide the existence of any colleges they deemed to be dangerous. Gate spells and Communication and Empathy spells are therefore unavailable to PCs outside of a Cabal based campaign. I just wanted to get an idea from other more experienced GMs about all of this. Will this work? Is there anything I might have overlooked?

03-16-2008, 08:03 AM	#2
Fred Brackin Join Date: Aug 2007	Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds It was 3e but when I/we worked Infinity and the Cabal (as they were then) into a multi-dimensional campaign the basic theme that covered both of them was that they were geographically minor players who didn't know nearly as much as they thought they did. In short, neither of them had much of a window into "universal" ("multiversal?") truth. There's no particular need to reconcile their worldviews. Both were only correct on a very restricted basis. __________________ Fred Brackin

03-16-2008, 09:44 AM	#3
transmetahuman Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA, USA	Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds If I ever did this, I'd probably go with something like Fred said. It's too limiting to the feel of IW to force Cabal's system of magic on every world - Technomancer's Merlin, for example, has Oz particles tied to radioactivity and necromancy. I think it's better if the set of worlds that IW can access parachronically, and the set the Cabal can access magically, are overlapping but not identical. I've thought about the implications of having a different physics in each world - what happens to the molecules in your body when you translate to a world where the rules of nature include phlogiston and steampunk gear, for instance? I've got the beginnings of an overarching "meta-metaphysics" framework that can explain it all, but it wouldn't be to many peoples' taste I think - I intend to use it only as deep background that the characters will never know, only to help rule on the effects of genre mish-mash. Last edited by transmetahuman; 03-16-2008 at 09:47 AM.

03-16-2008, 10:33 PM	#6
isf Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Jacksonville, AR	Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds I've been thinking about how the Cabal interacts with worlds with mana levels and will probably use the following model. The Cabal's magic system relies on creating a resonance between the caster and the decanic field in Briah; I'm interpreting this to mean that for cabalistic purposes, the base mana levels for the different realms are integral to the realms (Assiah is always considered Low Mana even on worlds that have a higher or lower mana level) except when changed as per Cabal. [this is comparable to drawing on the Pattern in Amber or the Logrus in the Courts] Some denizens of the higher Realms (Qlippoth, Demons, Eikones) can grant powers to individuals or groups that will also work in most places [like the Broken Patterns]. The Aethyrs can grant cosmic powers that work everywhere [lke the Primal Pattern]. Worlds (in Assiah) with mana present (low to wild) often develop magical traditions and techniques that may be unique to their particular world (or more likely to a similar set of worlds). This would be like using native sorcery or a source like the Keep of Four Worlds. Game mechanically, a mage travelling to worlds with similar power structures (ie magery and spells) would take familiarity penalties. If the local magic is expressed differently (magery and Ritual Magic, Ritual Magic 3E, CF magic as examples of different powers structures); the mages might have to learn the new magic system. Mana Enhancer would work differently for different types of magics and I'd probably require a version of specialized for most games that would feature world hopping. A Cabalists ME would usually represent an innate connection with a higher realms [like being present on both realms at once] or a strong attunement to a specific decan or planet. __________________ Travis Foster

03-17-2008, 10:34 AM	#7
quarkstomper Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: The Enchanted Land-O-Cheese	Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds Back when I was running an INFINITE WORLDS campaign, I had my group encounter a member of the Cabal who wound up becoming a regular NPC; (my wife's character thought he was cute). But he was from a world where the American Revolution was being fought with magic and I could not decide whether the Cabal that the NPC came from was actually a trans-dimensional conspiracy, or rather this world's analogue to a conspiracy that exists independantly on other worlds. It never became a big plot point, so I never had to resolve the question. I decided that the NPC would be able to use magic on Homeline, but only by performing a ritual involving the shedding of some of his own blood -- basically burning a hit point -- to temporarily raise the mana level in his immedeate area. He kept this a secret from the PCs as long as possible; he didn't want them to know that he was not completely powerless on Homeline. The world he came from was an interesting one. He'd been sent to accompany General Gates to America in order to kill Benjamin Franklin who had stolen sorcerous secrets from the Cabal during his stay in England. Great fun. I probably should develop that world a bit more someday...

03-23-2008, 11:44 AM	#9
demonsbane Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Spain —Europe	Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds It is easy to understand the Kabbalistic take about the planets can be viewed as outrageously absurd from our current viewpoint. And any straightforward try to make both of them compatible only can be wrong (1). However, that apparent absurd can be viewed as a paradox, only solved from the utmost metaphysical point of view (2) involving the nature of perception. It is exactly a koan. This is in line with the subject: "The Sword Bridge, or the bridge so narrow and sharp that to cross it is to be cut in half (or to fall to the Abyss), is a common theme in shamanic initiation and in later legendry. Sir Lancelot must cross a Sword Bridge into the kingdom of Gore (...) Iroquois ghosts must cross and impossibily narrow bridge to the Afterlife (...) _____(Suppressed Transmission II, p. 122, note 5) Metaphysical knowledge is sometimes symbolized by walking along that impossibily narrow and sharp edge. In this context "being cut in half" means to fall in a partial and dualistic understanding of reality, or put in other words: to fail the quest. In this case, both "halfs" are the incompatible Kabbalistic and modern science takes about the subject (3). (1) That is the reason why GURPS Infinite Worlds fails in trying to be a "universal generic setting" for GURPS. _____True, GURPS is a universal multi-genre roleplaying system, but it needs to take each setting and genre separately, not all of them simultaneously. Fantasy, being the modern fictional expression of most ancient world-views, along with its characteristic Worlds Within Worlds vertical cosmology -shared by Kabbalah-, can't be consistently combined with Science Fiction approaches. Not in the same setting. (2) Metaphysics is the domain "beyond all opposition", and that does include the opposition between the Kabbalistic "spiritual" nature of planets, and the materialistic one portrayed by modern astronomy. (3 Kabbalistic cosmology, however, wasn't an end on itself but a path to the goal of Atziluth: the metaphysical domain of the Absolute. In that point, the entire Tree of Life, Briah, Yetzirah and Assiah, along with the diverse vertically aligned planetary worlds or ontological states had to be leaved forever "behind", entirely transcended. Differently than that, modern science is "closed" in itself, being unable to provide any path for what it is actively denying. __________________ "Let's face it: for some people, roleplaying is a serious challenge, a life-or-death struggle." J. M. Caparula/Scott Haring "Physics is basic but inessential." Wolfgang Smith My G+

03-23-2008, 01:12 PM	#10
David Johnston2 Join Date: Dec 2007	Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds Yeah...whatever. In any case, it's safe to posit that No-Mana worlds actually do have mana. It's just that for one reason or another it isn't amenable to being manipulated.

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