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Old 12-30-2009, 08:40 PM   #71
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by copeab View Post
I've done that with characters with no stats at all written down for them
Sure, that can happen. But I've also had something on a character sheet suddenly suggest a slant on the character that I wouldn't have thought of. That's a benefit that goes beyond the planned use of the stats.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:13 PM   #72
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by Nymdok View Post
If most of the PCs are using combat builds then using NPCs with combat builds helps maitain consistency, but only in a vague and loose sense that will be trampled soon after points are acquired.

At 100 points its not too tough, but once the PCs have 20 more poitns to spend, where do those points go and what skills/abilities do they acquire? The NPCs most certainly will not spend the points the same way and it wont take long before the figter that spread his points between swor, shield, knife, brawling and Axe/Mace is outclassed or evenly matched to an NPC mook that has a lower point value, but a more concentrated focus.

Nymdok
And a vague and loose sense is all I'm talking about. And even then, as I said, it has to be apples-to-apples comparison -- if I hyper-specialize an NPC as a total combat monster, I have to realize that he's going to be significantly more powerful than his points indicate, because he didn't pay for the standard skills and stuff that the PCs had to get to stay alive long enough to encounter him.

But really, you're right in that a character's total point value isn't meaningfully related to their combat prowess ... but in the broad sense of, "how much power can they bring to bear for/against the party." That's why allies and enemies even have point values, as a ballpark estimate of what they can do. And it's certainly useful to go through the act of statting out NPCs, so that if nothing else, I can decide what specific abilities they have, and guage their power level based on that. Points are just there to give me a number along with eyeballing it.
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:32 PM   #73
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
But that's just it.

He's not about equal in combat power, in challenge rating or in any other useful formula that you can use to gauge relative power. He has spent an equal number of 'I want that trait' points and that's all the two have in common.

A martial artist with insanely high ST and DX as well as Karate at DX+10 and Judo at DX+10 as well as six other martial art skills at DX+8 (that's well over 200 points) will not be equal in any way, shape or form to a 0-point soldier who has Guns -12, Tactics -10 and Stealth -10 and is waiting with a rifle aimed at a doorway he's coming through.

Points loosely measure adventuring utility, but mostly, they act as a limit on how many cool powers players can buy. They don't really impact tactical situations in the game all that much, since being issued equipment and holding an advantageous position is not even worth any points. And that has a much greater bearing on the result.

Okay, sure, if you come up with situations where points don't matter, then they don't matter in those situations. Point taken, although I don't generally have nameless soldiers with high-powered rifles pick off my PCs. Not a statement on "realism," nor a condemnation of anyone who chooses to run their games that way ... just not what we consider fun.

Given that I choose to give the PCs a sporting chance in most fights, I find that it does help to know the relative power level of the people that the party will meet in tactical combat. I agree that equipment is overwhelmingly important in combat ... and there are a great number of points-based traits that deal with equipment. Wealth, Signature Gear, High/Low Tech, etc. When statting out Storm Troopers, for example, be sure to take into account that each and every one has Patron: The Empire (Giant Interstellar Organization, appears almost all the time, grants equipment at least equal to average starting wealth, and has "special abilities" in the form of being able to do anything that Darth Vader gets it in his head that he wants to do) [180 points]. Does that directly affect their combat prowess? You betcha! How about their "general formidability" as characters? I'd say so -- especially considering that without their Patron, they're 50-point mooks at best. But mooks with blasters, body armor, and hundreds of thousands of like-minded friends.

Anyway, point being, points serve a purpose, and not just limiting how many abilities a character can buy -- that's more based on whether or not Exotic, Supernatural, Cinematic, and other exceptional traits are available to PCs, and what "level-caps" the GM chooses to place on leveled advantages. Points will give you a ballpark of what kinds of stat and skill levels to expect ... 100 point characters build out very differently than 200 point characters, just in basic attribute levels, which trickle down to skill levels, secondaries, etc. And at the atomic level, you can expect that a 100-point combat build is a "reasonable challenge" for another 100-point combat build, given similar build rules and arbitrary starting circumstances. There's no science to it, but again, knowing the points just helps in the process of eyeballing it.

Sheesh, you'd think I was arguing that D&D hit points are realistic or something.
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:40 PM   #74
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
You're confusing the position. "Not applying a point cost to traits" does not equal "less firmly-defined" or "less realistic". I'm perfectly capable of deciding that a thug has, for example,
ST 14, DX 11, HT 11, IQ 9,
Combat Reflexes, Rank (Mafia) 1,
Bad Temper (12), Duty (The Mafia) (12),
Brawling-14, Guns (Pistol)-13, Intimidation-13, and Savoir-Faire (Mafia)-13.

If our group's playstyle prohibts fudging, I never need to go outside these traits - if he needs to drive a car in a combat, I'll say "well, he doesn't have Drive, guess he's defaulting from DX".
Likewise, he's perfectly capable of fitting into a simulationist game. He's not very well-rounded as a person, but he's plausible as a guy who's super-focused on his job.

The point is, I have no idea how many points this guy costs, since I didn't bother to add them up. And I don't need to. Giving his point value wouldn't make it easier or harder to fudge his traits, and it wouldn't make him or less "realistic". Calculating his point value is a needless headache.
My only concern is that the GM would be willing to write down, somewhere, what those details are. In my experience, if the GM doesn't write down "Bad Temper (12)," it can morph into "Bad Temper (15)" when the GM wants to fudge for a rolled 14.

I didn't mean to suggest that point totals are vitally important.


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Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
The stats of anything can be set to whatever value the GM wants; even if stating it up using a point-buy system the GM has an unlimited point budget. So, ultimately, all values do depend only on GM judgment calls. What matters is whether or not the GMs judgment is fair and fun for the players, not if he used his judgment to stat everything in minute detail ahead of time or whether he used the most basic stats on the fly.
You see, there is a virtue to forcing the GM to write up point totals in that case: if the GM commits to a point budget, the exercise becomes less prone to GM abuse.

If I recruit experienced GURPS players and I tell them, "There's four of you, you get 250-point characters, and the Big Bad Guy is a 1000-point superhero," then the players know that I'm going to play fair. If I say, "Yeah, make up anything you like with 250 points, and the Big Bad Guy ... well, he'll be a challenge," then I leave the door open to kill flow for everyone concerned.

I still have not had a chance to actually run Greg Stolze's "In Spaaace!" but apparently its "Token Effort" mechanic is designed to prevent the GM from having an "unlimited point budget."

"In Spaaace!" is a very high-abstraction game - not a lot of crunch. But it seeks to limit GM fiat, and therefore I find it very intriguing. I might even manage to recruit players for it, because most of the folks I talk to want something light, immediately engaging, and resolvable in no more than 60 minutes.
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Last edited by riprock; 12-30-2009 at 10:46 PM. Reason: adding Eric B Smith quote and comment
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:53 PM   #75
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by riprock View Post
My only concern is that the GM would be willing to write down, somewhere, what those details are. In my experience, if the GM doesn't write down "Bad Temper (12)," it can morph into "Bad Temper (15)" when the GM wants to fudge for a rolled 14.
Unless the PCs specifically try to trigger personality traits, I never roll against them.
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:59 PM   #76
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by riprock View Post
If I recruit experienced GURPS players and I tell them, "There's four of you, you get 250-point characters, and the Big Bad Guy is a 1000-point superhero," then the players know that I'm going to play fair. If I say, "Yeah, make up anything you like with 250 points, and the Big Bad Guy ... well, he'll be a challenge," then I leave the door open to kill flow for everyone concerned.
This makes the assumption that points are a particularly good measure of the power of a character. I use plenty of foes who are a lot fewer points than the PCs, for the simple reason that PCs need to be competent in all the possible areas of challenge, while opponents only need to be competent at whatever is their job.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:49 PM   #77
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by riprock View Post
My only concern is that the GM would be willing to write down, somewhere, what those details are. In my experience, if the GM doesn't write down "Bad Temper (12)," it can morph into "Bad Temper (15)" when the GM wants to fudge for a rolled 14.

You see, there is a virtue to forcing the GM to write up point totals in that case: if the GM commits to a point budget, the exercise becomes less prone to GM abuse.
THIS!

Its easy to do with the best of Intentions and should be avoided at all costs!

If you're worried that a given conflict could result in an outcome that is unfavorable to your story, LEAVE IT OUT! Only include conflicts where you can (at least somewhat) forsee and narrate the outcomes, and those that are consistent with the plot,chars etc

Nymdok

p.s. Read the Article. Loved it! Its a great reminder that there is a difference between refereeing a game and sitting in moral judgement on Players. Refereeing a game means that you are ensuring that everybody follows the same ruels and is held to the same standard. That means both sides of the screen.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:51 PM   #78
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by CousinX View Post
When statting out Storm Troopers, for example, be sure to take into account that each and every one has Patron: The Empire (Giant Interstellar Organization, appears almost all the time, grants equipment at least equal to average starting wealth, and has "special abilities" in the form of being able to do anything that Darth Vader gets it in his head that he wants to do) [180 points].
This is, to my understanding of the rules and according to Kromm's interpretations on the forums, incorrect. The Storm Troopers have a job, worth 0-points.* In the course of carrying out that job, they have access to equipment, but they are not the legal owners of that equipment, they cannot take it on adventures unrelated to their job and they can't ask the Empire to help them with personal goals.

A stormtrooper who is secretly the son of a high-ranking admiral who will protect him especially and who can influence orders and posting has a Patron. A regular one has a job.

*They also have a Duty, Extremely Hazardous and worth [-20] points, but that's not all that germane to this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CousinX View Post
There's no science to it, but again, knowing the points just helps in the process of eyeballing it.
In my experience, knowing the tactical variables, including Attributes and skills, helps in the process of eyeballing. Knowing the total point value adds zero information to that.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:57 PM   #79
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by CousinX View Post
....Sheesh, you'd think I was arguing that D&D hit points are realistic or something.
Well what your saying is Heresy on that order of magnitude, to those of us who take the 'only stat the clever bits' stance.

Im not sure how you ensure the breadth of developement for NPCs is similar to PCs, but if its working for you, KEEP DOING IT. If it keeps working for you, try to articulate how your doing it, heck Id read that thread. If it stops working for you, you can always come back to this one. :)

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Old 12-31-2009, 12:05 AM   #80
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by riprock View Post
My only concern is that the GM would be willing to write down, somewhere, what those details are. In my experience, if the GM doesn't write down "Bad Temper (12)," it can morph into "Bad Temper (15)" when the GM wants to fudge for a rolled 14.
If "Bad Temper (15)" is a better fit, then that's what it becomes, regardless of what was previously written down. That's what good GMs do, adapt to the ongoing story, anything else is trying to run on rails, rails are just as bad for GMs as they are for players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by riprock View Post
You see, there is a virtue to forcing the GM to write up point totals in that case: if the GM commits to a point budget, the exercise becomes less prone to GM abuse.
Absolutely not, there is no value in forcing a GM to do anything unless you're trying to lose a GM from the hobby.

Of course if you're playing in a players vs. NPCs type of game, then you don't need a real GM anyway, just some dude who's willing to referee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by riprock View Post
If I recruit experienced GURPS players and I tell them, "There's four of you, you get 250-point characters, and the Big Bad Guy is a 1000-point superhero," then the players know that I'm going to play fair. If I say, "Yeah, make up anything you like with 250 points, and the Big Bad Guy ... well, he'll be a challenge," then I leave the door open to kill flow for everyone concerned.
Neither of those are descriptions of roleplaying setting/game, that's more a description of statted war game or of a boardgame, you can do that with RPG rules, but you don't need a real GM for that.
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