Rulebook PDF Posted

[offsides]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

I think that's just you. Looks ok to me, and printed will probably be fine.

I was more thinking about how the PDF would look in on screen, I know it should print fine.

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

Actually, defense strength isn't necessarily just a mass measurement. I've always understood it to represent a combination of armor/maneuverability. That said, it is a bit weird that GEVs are somehow special in this regard. Basically, they are the only thing smaller than a SHVY that is fast enough (and big enough) to be able to ram other units, but how does that make them that potent in a ram?Somewhere else it was suggested that GEV ramming damage is a factor of the powerplant exploding during a high speed impact, justifying attack strength that way. I'm not so sure I buy that, either. I'm also not sure that's enough to justify a 1-1 on the train. I mean, a GEV = SHVY in a ram on the train and everything else is a 1-2?

I'd like to hear some of the rationale behind this, too.

Trains have to stay on the track - derail them, and they go boom. Thus, if the velocity of a GEV hitting the train is enough to knock it off track even a little bit, the train falls down.

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

Edit: Incidentally, if it said "twice the defense strength", the value would still be the same. ;-)
I'd still like to know the reasoning, though.

That's true for GEVs and LGEVs, but not GEV-PCs (1/2 D2), which have even more mass than a GEV and about the same powerplant, just less built-in weaponry. Also, it doesn't make sense to me that a hovertruck couldn't do at least some damage by ramming, though I would buy an argument that they don't have the precision handling needed to run into anything mobile. But realistically a fully loaded hovertruck running into a building should theoretically do at least 1 die damage, even if an empty one does nothing...

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by offsides

That's true for GEVs and LGEVs, but not GEV-PCs (1/2 D2), which have even more mass than a GEV and about the same powerplant, just less built-in weaponry.

True, but remember, we are talking about straight GEVs, not LGEVs or GEV-PCs (since only GEVs are specifically called out). The logic I am assuming is being used is:

LGEV: 1/2 D1 M4-3 - has the speed, but too small
GEV: 2/2 D2 M4-3 - has the speed and is big enough
GEV-PC: 1/2 D2 M3-2 - might be big enough, but too slow

Originally Posted by offsides

Also, it doesn't make sense to me that a hovertruck couldn't do at least some damage by ramming, though I would buy an argument that they don't have the precision handling needed to run into anything mobile. But realistically a fully loaded hovertruck running into a building should theoretically do at least 1 die damage, even if an empty one does nothing...

As for the hovertruck, I see that as a light GEV-PC. Even though it actually has a D1 (less than a GEV-PC), it's too slow (GEV-PC speed) and too small (size of a truck). However, it's worth pointing out that Hovertrucks used to do damage to buildings (Shockwave 5.043).

In any case, the point is the ramming logic for GEVs is hinky (even though it's been more or less like this for a long time).

[dwalend]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

successive AP attacks on infantry:

The exception in 7.09 "Exception: Per 7.05.1, an infantry unit may only suffer one AP attack per turn from each attacking unit." is a bit obtuse.

The referred text in 7.05.1 "No infantry unit may be attacked more than once per turn by the Ogre’s AP, but any number of the Ogre’s AP weapons may be used for that single attack." talks only about Ogre AP specifically.

Since 7.05.1 doesn't cover non-Ogre AP, it muddies the water a bit to use it as an inclusive reference (ie "Per 7.05.1"). It is helpful to point out the special case of Ogre AP vs non-Ogre AP, though.

Suggested text:
7.09 Successive attacks. Any number of successive attacks may be made against any unit or Ogre weapon in one turn, provided that each attacking unit or weapon fires only once. Exception: An infantry unit may only suffer one AP attack per turn from each attacking unit. See 7.05.1 for Ogre-specific AP attack behavior.

7.05.1 needs at least a light touch, too. It doesn't cover the case for multiple Ogres (or superheavy tanks or the like) and could refer to infantry squads for no penalty.

Maybe:

7.05.1 AP weapons. Antipersonnel weapons are
effective only against infantry (including special infantry types)
and D0 units such as a regular (unarmored) CP. No infantry squad
may be attacked more than once per turn by a single units’s AP, but any
number of the attacking unit’s AP weapons may be used for that single attack.

[chademe]

I haven't played Ogre in over 20 years, so going through the rules now is like learning a new game.

The ramming rules have me a bit confused.

Are there rules for armor units ramming other armor units, or armor units ramming GEV units, etc? What about GEVs ramming trucks and so on? Maybe the size table on page 14 needs to be expanded with these other options.

Can the train ram? Obviously the target would have to be on the track at the time, but it's possible.

Also, I assume that when an Ogre rams a transport unit, the transport unit is destroyed, but I didn't see it explicitly mentioned anywhere.

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by chademe

Are there rules for armor units ramming other armor units, or armor units ramming GEV units, etc?

yes...

6.07.5 Ramming by other units. Units other than those specified (ie, GEVs and SHVYs) are not maneuverable and/or heavy enough to ram, unless the target is the train, as described in Section 9.05.

Originally Posted by chademe

What about GEVs ramming trucks and so on? Maybe the size table on page 14 needs to be expanded with these other options.

Hmm... actually, no, there isn't anything about GEVs ramming trucks (or much of anything ramming trucks), but...

6.07.2 GEVs ramming armor units. Regardless of the specific GEV type, the GEV is always destroyed. The other unit suffers an attack of twice the GEV’s normal attack strength. This may not be combined with other attacks.

Originally Posted by chademe

Can the train ram? Obviously the target would have to be on the track at the time, but it's possible.

Not exactly, but Section 9.06 covers collisions.

Originally Posted by chademe

Also, I assume that when an Ogre rams a transport unit, the transport unit is destroyed, but I didn't see it explicitly mentioned anywhere.

What do you consider to be a transport unit? GEV-PCs are covered by armor units, trucks and hovertrucks, as mentioned before, are somewhat lacking (although I think a hovertruck is considered an armor unit).

I agree that ramming and weaker units is not covered very well. For example, ti doesn't really make sense that something like a GEV would be destroyed by ramming a D0 truck.

[chademe]

6.07.2 GEVs ramming armor units. Regardless of the specific GEV type, the GEV is always destroyed. The other unit suffers an attack of twice the GEV’s normal attack strength. This may not be combined with other attacks.

Maybe this needs to be titled "GEVs ramming other units."

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

What do you consider to be a transport unit? GEV-PCs are covered by armor units, trucks and hovertrucks, as mentioned before, are somewhat lacking (although I think a hovertruck is considered an armor unit).

I was looking at section 3 where the units seem to be categorized. That section basically divides everything into armor, infantry, transport, or ogre units. Not having played in so long I'm not sure how often these other situations come up, but I thought I'd ask about them.

[dwalend]

Here are changes for 3.02 as I suggested on the scenario PDF thread. I also added a sentence to smooth out the transition for special cases of a D result.

3.02 Infantry (INF).Infantry wear powered “battlesuits” which
greatly increase their mobility and provide some radiation and
shrapnel protection. The scenario setups specify the number of infantry squads each side starts with. Infantry counters represent 1, 2, or 3 squads.
Infantry counters are 2/1 on one side, and either 1/1 or 3/1 on the
other, for ease in splitting or recombining squads.
A 3-squad counter is the equivalent of one armor unit for both stacking and
victory points. In the starting scenarios no more
than three squads of infantry can occupy one hex, and all infantry in a hex must be grouped together as one counter. Note that the defense strength of each infantry counter is equal to the number of squads. Safety in numbers!
Most infantry are “regular” INF squads. Specialist infantry, as
described below, have extra cost and capabilities but otherwise
perform as regular infantry.

All types of infantry can combine in groups of up to three squads
for defensive purposes when in the same hex. Any two squads can defend together at D2, and any three squads can defend at D3. If an attacker gets a D result then one squad in the group is destroyed. If an attacker gets a D result against a mixed stack of infantry, roll randomly to see which squad
is lost.

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by chademe

Maybe this needs to be titled "GEVs ramming other units."

I was looking at section 3 where the units seem to be categorized. That section basically divides everything into armor, infantry, transport, or ogre units. Not having played in so long I'm not sure how often these other situations come up, but I thought I'd ask about them.

Ok, so Trucks and Hovertrucks are transport units, and nothing in the rules says anything about the results of ramming a transport unit, whether by an Ogre, a Superheavy or GEV.

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by dwalend

If an attacker gets a D result then one squad in the group is destroyed. If an attacker gets a D result against a mixed stack of infantry, roll randomly to see which squad
is lost.

That isn't going to work, for two reasons.

1. The defense predetermines how the squads are combined during an attack (See 7.12.1)
2. A attack is always explicitly called out ahead of time (See 7.08)

So it will always be clear exactly what infantry is being affected during a given attack.

[dwalend]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

Updating the example in 7.13.2 as you have suggested would not clarify that at all. We still need explicit information on what constitutes an infantry "unit" in the context of attacking treads (ie, is a unit = counter, or is a unit = squad). Most text in the rules implies that unit = counter; in which case, attacking as a 3/1 or 2/1 infantry would be allowed.

Actually the rules text bounces back and forth between a unit being a counter and a unit being a squad. (I also spotted tread unit.) Counter, unit, and stack are ambiguous in the rules, and the text uses the term group as well. (Ug. A big, late change.)

I suggest a change to 7.13.2 to clarify that none of Ogre weapons, armor units, or infantry squads may combine fire when attacking Ogre treads. Steve, if you want the rule to be different --infantry counters fire-- then that change can be independent of the rest and confined to 7.13.2. Also, let us know if you want a conversation about superheavy tanks combining their two attacks on treads.

I suggest the following:

Change the scenarios from '"strength points" to "number of squads" and update 3.02 as I suggested in my previous post.

3.02.2 Heavy Weapons Teams (HWT). Specialist battlesuit
squads, with rules to be added as an online bonus.

3.02.3 Combat Engineers (CENG). Specialist battlesuit squads,
with rules to be added as an online bonus.

5.02 Replace "In all cases, the basic infantry unit is the 3-squad counter." with "For stacking and victory points an infantry squad counts as 1/3rd of an armor unit."

5.02.1 Original Ogre map scenarios. In scenarios on the original
Ogre map stacking is limited. Armor units may not be stacked; that is, only one armor unit at a time may occupy each hex. A maximum of three squads of infantry may occupy each hex. Armor units may not be stacked with infantry squads. (This limitation is for speed of play. If you try an Ogre Map scenario with stacking, be sure to use the spillover fire rules in
Section 7.12, too.)

5.11.3 replace "unit" with "squad"

7.05 Attacks. Each armor unit and infantry squad ...

7.05.1 replace "unit" with "squad"

7.09 Successive attacks.... Exception: Per 7.05.1, an infantry squad may only suffer one AP attack per turn from each attacking unit.

7.12.1 Attacks on stacked infantry. When a stack
containing several infantry squads is attacked, the defender may
determine how they are grouped. ...

7.11 Attack resolution. ...

When an infantry group receives a D
result, it is immediately reduced by one squad.

7.12.1 Attacks on stacked infantry squads. When a stack
containing several infantry squads is attacked, the defender may
determine how they are grouped. For instance, 5 squads of infantry
could be attacked as a 3 and a 2, or as a 2, 2, and 1, or as five 1s
. . . etc. It is up to the defender to determine how the squads are
deployed; the attacker then decides which will be the target. However, in an
overrun attack (8.00) each squad is always a separate target.

7.13.2 ... Each armor unit, Ogre weapon, or infantry squad attacking treads must do so individually. Thus, a successful Heavy Tank attack on treads would cost an Ogre 4 treads.

Example of play on p 17: replace "infantry units" with "infantry squads"

8.04 Resolving an overrun attack. When an overrun takes
place, all infantry groups ...

10.04 ... Replace "infantry unit" with "infantry squad" .

12.08 Spillover fire. Replace "infantry unit" with "infantry squad"

p 24, CRT: ...When an infantry group receives a D result...