Weak infravision for half-orcs and such

[Michael Thayne]

It's a bit odd that goblin-kin have Infravision, while half-orcs have Night Vision 5, since that's actually better than Infravision if darkness penalties are no worse than -5. Might it make sense to create a "weak infravision" trait? I can see a couple ways to do this: it could be the same as Night Vision 5, but subject to all the limitations of Infravision in exchange for working in total darkness. Alternatively, it could work like Infravision but with a minimum darkness penalty, say -3 or -4.

I tried to build the latter using Temporary Disadvantage, and I figure "minimum darkness penalty" is worth a bit less than the Noncombatant anti-talent from Power-Ups 3, maybe -13/level, so four levels would be -52, justifying a -50% limitation. OTOH that seems a bit harsh, especially given that most light sources standardly give -3 out to triple their base radius. Thoughts?

[Dalin]

An alternative might be to just buff Infravision a bit. I might rule, for example, that the limitations of Infravision don't really kick in until you hit total darkness. At lesser darkness levels, it works like Night Vision. For a DF game, this seems to match the basic intent that monsters can see in the dark but most heroes can't without magical help.

[Balor Patch]

Darkvision (did that make it into DFRPG?) is [25] and has Can See Colors available as a +20% enhancement. You could probably just apply that to Infravision.

[ArchonShiva]

In stock DFRPG, with most dungeons I’ve experienced, complete darkness (and monsters that don’t mind it) is so common that never Night Vision 9 isn’t worth Infravision.

You could make Infravision a flat -2 modifier under any circumstance; It would certainly make sense for technological vision enhancement. For races with natural infravision you’d need to decide which ones have both and how long it takes to switch, if any.

I actually found that the most interesting thing to handle darkness is to significantly reduce the amount of it. I gave most night vision races NV2 and lit most of my dungeons to the -3 to -1 light level, cutting severely down on monsters that “don’t need light to see”. In three years of regular play, something like “whole dungeon in complete darkness” was a feature twice, and both involved rather little combat.

Darkness is so crippling that it demands party-wide permanent solutions, such as Infravision as a spell on. Once these solutions are in place, darkness stops mattering entirely as a gameplay element, and that’s a shame, because it’s actually a cool feature if you use it to make things different.

It’s like low ceilings. If everywhere had low ceilings, you’d get a party of halflings and it’d never matter again.

[ArchonShiva]

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

Darkvision (did that make it into DFRPG?) is [25] and has Can See Colors available as a +20% enhancement. You could probably just apply that to Infravision.

The variant dwarves in the excellent Nordlond Fólk (an official licensed DFRPG supplement by Gaming Ballistic) have Dark Vision. The advantage is not otherwise purchasable on its own, but the spell version is in DFRPG Spells and easily kept on by a skill-20 wizard. I think it’s also available in Magic Item.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Dalin

An alternative might be to just buff Infravision a bit. I might rule, for example, that the limitations of Infravision don't really kick in until you hit total darkness. At lesser darkness levels, it works like Night Vision. For a DF game, this seems to match the basic intent that monsters can see in the dark but most heroes can't without magical help.

There's no logical reason to do this. Dim light won't somehow make Infravision useful for helping you notice something that's the same temperature as its surroundings.

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

Darkvision (did that make it into DFRPG?) is [25] and has Can See Colors available as a +20% enhancement. You could probably just apply that to Infravision.

But lack of color vision is hardly the only limitation of Infravision—far more important is that you can only see heat differences. So useless against cold-blooded creatures for example.

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to run with essentially treating Infravision as a leveled variant on Night Vision: as Night Vision but. you can have up to 10 levels and it works in total darkness in exchange for only applying to Vision and attack rolls vs. things that emit heat. Could throw in +1 to Vision rolls per 5 levels vs. such targets, and +1 to Tracking rolls / 3 levels to track such targets as long as the trail is no more than an hour old.

[ArchonShiva]

Infravision as written is just dark vision without details and colors. In combat it is the exact same except for I think one spell.
If it failed to see cold-blooded animals, it would also fail to see walls and pits, which is definitely not how it’s written.

It’s not seeing IR light or “heat vision”; infravision is a name, not a game mechanic. It’s “fantasy vision in darkness with no color” inspired from tabletop RPGs of old, with a door open for the GM to say “this animated statue is the exact same temperature as the air” once in a while, but that’s more a function of the statue than the infravision.

If you want it to be actual infravision or whatever, you can certainly house rule that, but the books don’t do this. And yes, it becomes a bit expensive at [10] if it works like passive IR goggles.

Darkvision has much less of a scientific basis to it, when you think about it.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by ArchonShiva

Infravision as written is just dark vision without details and colors. In combat it is the exact same except for I think one spell.
If it failed to see cold-blooded animals, it would also fail to see walls and pits, which is definitely not how it’s written.

It’s not seeing IR light or “heat vision”; infravision is a name, not a game mechanic. It’s “fantasy vision in darkness with no color” inspired from tabletop RPGs of old, with a door open for the GM to say “this animated statue is the exact same temperature as the air” once in a while, but that’s more a function of the statue than the infravision.

If you want it to be actual infravision or whatever, you can certainly house rule that, but the books don’t do this. And yes, it becomes a bit expensive at [10] if it works like passive IR goggles.

Darkvision has much less of a scientific basis to it, when you think about it.

This is incorrect. The definition of both traits in Monsters references the spells of the same name. Look at the spells, and you'll see Darkvision already doesn't let you see color, and Infravision has the additional limitation "Things that are the same temperature are visible only if 'lit' by being within two yards of something warm (including the subject’s body)" (Spells p. 47).

[ArchonShiva]

You are correct on Dark Vision not seeing colors. I must be mixing up some other game’s version.

As for Infravision, I think most people misunderstand the meaning of “same temperature”. Unless a place has been thermally isolated and stagnant for a very long time, the air is going to be a different temperature from the ground: A golem isn’t going to be invisible, nor is your sword. An air elemental might be.

Monsters is clear on infravision be a general “no penalties” effect, not “generallly know where limbs are”. -1 darkness in the illumination table is quite mild, and aside from being able to tell which color your hair is, infravision is better than this.

[Kromm]

One of the most important parts of Infravision is this:

Things that are the same temperature are visible only if "lit" by being within two yards of something warm (including the subject’s body).

In short, even assuming perfect thermalization of everything in the dungeon (doors, golems, pits, zombies, etc.) – which I agree is excessively unlikely – a living being with Infravision can see and engage in unpenalized combat with anything at up to 2 yards of distance, and distinguish obstacles and traps while still a fairly safe 2 yards away, because they're their own thermal flashlight.

There's also no range cap on how far away they can see and attack non-thermalized targets at no penalty whatsoever, which is the most likely case in most dungeons where there are thermal gradients due to depth, airflow in through entrances and out any vents or fissures, and living beings breathing, cooking, and generally not being dead.

Obviously, Infravision is hosed against the occasional rare foe like a golem or skeleton ranged combatant that has been sitting around the same spot in the dungeon forever. But that's a small weakness next to Night Vision's total inability to cope with total darkness, which is a downright common issue in the dungeon.