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Old 03-13-2015, 09:19 AM   #31
Gwythaint
 
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Default Re: TL 3-4 Slave Prices

In my DF game, I also hold slavery to be illegal, but there is a lot of indentured servitude, and sale of indentures that mimics it. The Adventurer's guild regularly buys contracts of criminals sentenced to servitude to use as opponents in fights and competitions, and they also allow people to settle their debts by selling the rights to a body for necromantic purposes. Some crimes have the "Death plus Hard Labor" penalties from Technomancer and there have been a few occasions where critical successes on Zombie spells resulted in willful undead; the negotiation of their legal status as slaves being possibly mitigated to indenturehood is a plot point.
I use Debt plus Duty, possibly coupled with Social Stigma:Criminal to mark these folks; your indenture is done when you pay off the debt and the duty.
I also use the contract being equal to 1 years pay as the price; paying it back is reduced by cost of living. I think it was from 3e, but I upgraded to 4e and don't have many of my old supplements anymore.

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Old 03-13-2015, 12:48 PM   #32
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: TL 3-4 Slave Prices

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruundehn View Post
I cannot remember where I ran across that same bit of data. As was mentioned earlier, this will vary depending upon the market - recent wars etc.

This means that other than the poor, most people could afford a slave or two.
GURPS says five years of profit, meaning income minus Cost-of-Living. Given how bad GURPS' economy is, though, it's not something I can make any use of. But if using better data for income/expense than what GURPS offers, the five year thing might be a plausible average, although it'd go up and down depending on place and time.

5 years might be a good baseline for a place close to friendly Viking neighbours who frequently go on raids and capture slaves to sell to you, whereas 3 years could most of the expansion period of Rome, with constant wars providing a steady stream of slaves, and something like 8 or 10 years at a place where the slave supply is limited.

I have not used such a method to derive my own slave costs, which I'll post to this thread once I've finished converting them to GURPS and writing them up.



As for "most people", that's blatantly obviously wrong.

But medieval people weren't people, anyway. Medieval people were households, and it is indeed plausible that every Status 1 household could afford to own a few slaves. The standard Viking Age farmstead, the home of an extended family and with its owner being a Status 1 patriarch (or sometimes a pair of brothers), was meant to own an average of 3 slaves, to help with the farm work or kitchen work, in addition to the work performed by the free men and women of the extended family living there.

Or... maybe a tiny Status 1 household couldn't afford a slave (depending on how cheap they were to buy, and how costly they were to feed and clothe), but certanly the smallest Status 2 one could, even if it's just one young unmarried man, living on his own, perhaps in the city attending university, he'd be able to afford a servant, a valet or a bed-slave, for his own use. For Status 1, the household probably needs to be of a certain size before it can afford the one-time expense of purchasing a slave and the ongoing cost of feeding and clothing the slave, but assuming food is the biggest expense item (I have some notes for medieval prices too, early GURPS TL3, and they suggest that indeed it is), food is quite available on farms and generally in rural areas, compared to towns or even cities.

It's important to keep in mind that in a medieval or renaissance setting, the majority of the population are of Status less than 0, although if there's just been a massive plague (e.g. as with the Black Death in Europe) then that will skew things somewhat, increasing demand for labour and so improve the economy of a lot of people. Even farmers can probably opt to farm and graze only the best land if 1/5 to 1/4 (or more!) of the population has croaked. That's not enough to raise everyone, or even most people, from Status -1 to 0, but it's a fractional step upwards (and also, apart from direct income improvements, makes it easier for people to demand rights, e.g. forming guilds or strengthening existing guilds, and for serfs to re-negotiate their ancients rights and duties with their manorial lords, said negotiations being rather less inequal than usual).
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Old 03-13-2015, 01:00 PM   #33
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Default Re: TL 3-4 Slave Prices

Short answer: Gurps Martial Arts - Gladiator p. 24

Just replace the skills evaluates for combat for what slave are suppose to be good at; Erotic Arts, Cooking, Brawling, House Keeping, ect...

I use this rule to evaluate the cost of the slaves in my campaign.
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Old 03-14-2015, 02:10 AM   #34
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Default Re: TL 3-4 Slave Prices

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
GURPS says five years of profit, meaning income minus Cost-of-Living. Given how bad GURPS' economy is, though, it's not something I can make any use of. But if using better data for income/expense than what GURPS offers, the five year thing might be a plausible average, although it'd go up and down depending on place and time.

5 years might be a good baseline for a place close to friendly Viking neighbours who frequently go on raids and capture slaves to sell to you, whereas 3 years could most of the expansion period of Rome, with constant wars providing a steady stream of slaves, and something like 8 or 10 years at a place where the slave supply is limited.

I have not used such a method to derive my own slave costs, which I'll post to this thread once I've finished converting them to GURPS and writing them up.



As for "most people", that's blatantly obviously wrong.

But medieval people weren't people, anyway. Medieval people were households, and it is indeed plausible that every Status 1 household could afford to own a few slaves. The standard Viking Age farmstead, the home of an extended family and with its owner being a Status 1 patriarch (or sometimes a pair of brothers), was meant to own an average of 3 slaves, to help with the farm work or kitchen work, in addition to the work performed by the free men and women of the extended family living there.

Or... maybe a tiny Status 1 household couldn't afford a slave (depending on how cheap they were to buy, and how costly they were to feed and clothe), but certanly the smallest Status 2 one could, even if it's just one young unmarried man, living on his own, perhaps in the city attending university, he'd be able to afford a servant, a valet or a bed-slave, for his own use. For Status 1, the household probably needs to be of a certain size before it can afford the one-time expense of purchasing a slave and the ongoing cost of feeding and clothing the slave, but assuming food is the biggest expense item (I have some notes for medieval prices too, early GURPS TL3, and they suggest that indeed it is), food is quite available on farms and generally in rural areas, compared to towns or even cities.

It's important to keep in mind that in a medieval or renaissance setting, the majority of the population are of Status less than 0, although if there's just been a massive plague (e.g. as with the Black Death in Europe) then that will skew things somewhat, increasing demand for labour and so improve the economy of a lot of people. Even farmers can probably opt to farm and graze only the best land if 1/5 to 1/4 (or more!) of the population has croaked. That's not enough to raise everyone, or even most people, from Status -1 to 0, but it's a fractional step upwards (and also, apart from direct income improvements, makes it easier for people to demand rights, e.g. forming guilds or strengthening existing guilds, and for serfs to re-negotiate their ancients rights and duties with their manorial lords, said negotiations being rather less inequal than usual).
Something I forgot, this thread is TL3-4 and I was thinking ancient times not medieval times (not associated with the NYT).

But in the middle ages slavery in Western Europe was on its death bed with slavery tending to be confined to the Mediterranean and state ownership. While slaves existed until modern times, the numbers decreased as the Roman Church increasingly was against it. The various Italian States used slaves as galley fodder and that was the biggest usage in Western Europe. In Eastern Europe and the Muslim lands the situation was different. Individual owning of slaves remained common in the Muslim lands, indeed perhaps even down to today according to ant-slavery advocates. So, depending upon where you take your settings culture from, slavery may be rare, although legal, it may be confined to the State for specific uses such as mining or rowing, or it may be common with individuals having the ability to own several slaves even if not rich themselves.
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Old 03-14-2015, 03:40 AM   #35
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: TL 3-4 Slave Prices

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Originally Posted by gruundehn View Post
Something I forgot, this thread is TL3-4 and I was thinking ancient times not medieval times (not associated with the NYT).
Well, the absolute worst thing one can do, when trying to wrap one's head around slavery, is to fixate on one single flavour of slavery just because it happens to be the most thoroughly documented and most recent. Looking at various forms of slavery from widely different historical periods, as well as slavery-like states of being such as serfdom and indentured servitude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruundehn View Post
But in the middle ages slavery in Western Europe was on its death bed with slavery tending to be confined to the Mediterranean and state ownership. While slaves existed until modern times, the numbers decreased as the Roman Church increasingly was against it. The various Italian States used slaves as galley fodder and that was the biggest usage in Western Europe. In Eastern Europe and the Muslim lands the situation was different. Individual owning of slaves remained common in the Muslim lands, indeed perhaps even down to today according to ant-slavery advocates. So, depending upon where you take your settings culture from, slavery may be rare, although legal, it may be confined to the State for specific uses such as mining or rowing, or it may be common with individuals having the ability to own several slaves even if not rich themselves.
Slavery is still a thing in basically all parts of my Ärth historical fantasy setting, which is late 10th century and so in theory right in the middle of what GURPS defines as TL3, although some parts of the setting are better defined as early TL3. Those parts, the north and west, the "barbaric" and still-pagan lands, are also where slavery is most common, but it's very much individually owned slaves, not the huge mines or wheat plantations that the Romans and Greeks used to run earlier, each such facility owning dozens or hundreds of slaves. That's rare, although it's still usually how mining is done (conditions are so abysmal that it's hard to persuade non-slaves to work there). I just imagine that rather less mining gets done, overall, compared to the Greco-Roman "heights" of GURPS TL2.

Also most places don't count as having a "state", ignoring the Moslem lands (the Iberian and Arabian Caliphtate - the African Caliphate is more or less an anarchy) and the Byzantines, although the German Emperor kinda wants to set one up, more or less inspired by the current Byzantine model (and of course Charlemagne's earlier model).

Slavery is becoming less common in continental Christian lands, as there is increasing sentiment against it (consistent with the history of our timeline). In large cities, what GURPS terms "megalopoli", such as Rome and Constantinopolis, slavery is being replaced gradually with "paid" servants, who are more fed, roofed and clothed than they are paid an actual salary, and who can be "let go", if they perform poorly or are otherwise disliked, something you almost can't do with a slave. Farming-wise, serf-peasants and yeoman farmers produce almost all the food, as small households usually in villages, with the occasional large "farmstead" household still occuring, although not as common as among the Norse or Kelts (where small house holds gathered in villages is also becoming more common), although the Byzantines might have some slave plantations still (for wheat, olives and/or wine), and there might be some too in the formerly Greek lands conquered by the Moslems, in the east (any wine grown there is, obviously, only meant for sale to the infidels...).

But still, in many places, the idea of hiring someone on an on-going basis to do a job for you is alien. You can temporarily hire the services of someone, a mercenary or physician or the like, but the "hireling-as-permanent-employee" idea is alien. Instead, you buy a slave to do the job. Or of it is some kind of skilled work that is very rare in market terms, you "take in" someone capable of doing it, and roof and feed and clothe him (or in some case her - e.g. among the Kelts), generously, in exchange for on-going service.

But in such a situation, nobody haggles about the "pay", as that'd be extremely undignified (poetry, scholarship, medicine, swordsmithing, and similar "noble" services aren't for sale!). Rather, the "patron" has to guess what an appropriate quality of life is (i.e. in terms of GURPS' Cost-of-Living or some similar mechanic, spent on providing food, clothes and material gifts for the "employee"), and if the employee isn't happy with that then he'll simply gather up his stuff and bid the "patron" farewell, after a month or five (and - especially among the Kelts - warn his peers about the miserliness of that particular host).

Sometimes that even extends to martial services, with mercenaries being despised while loyal warriors housed in "mead halls" or the equivalent are accepted as being more-or-less part of "polite society". I mean, you'd obviously object loudly if your daughter wanted to marry a mercenary, or sleep with him, but not necessarily if it was with a warrior, especially a famous one.

Whereas among the Moslems, of course, slaves are sometimes soldiers - I don't know if they have eunuch mamluks yet, in the late 10th century, but they certainly sometimes employ enslaved foreigners as elite soldiers.
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Old 03-14-2015, 10:48 AM   #36
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Default Re: TL 3-4 Slave Prices

Per the p. B518 the cost of a slave five year's wages at the best job for which he qualifies, if free. Assuming their buddy is a typical murder-hobo, he's a Status 0, Wealth Average guy who would earn about $700/month. That's $42,000 after five years. For his sake, I hope the PCs have deep pockets.
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Old 03-14-2015, 05:31 PM   #37
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Default Re: TL 3-4 Slave Prices

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Felons owning firearms is the first thing that pops up to me.
Prescription medications as well.
Sumptuary laws.
The closest comparison is sumptuary laws. The other two can be violated by hiding it. The third can only be violated by being powerful enough to get away with it. In fact there is no point in doing so other then showing that you are in fact powerful enough to get away with it(one does not wear fancy clothing in one's home).

Likewise there are people who get away with slavery even in countries where slaving is strongly disapproved of by the public as well as the law. Those are usually crime lords or their customers.
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Old 03-15-2015, 01:57 AM   #38
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Default Re: TL 3-4 Slave Prices

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
Also most places don't count as having a "state", ignoring the Moslem lands (the Iberian and Arabian Caliphtate - the African Caliphate is more or less an anarchy) and the Byzantines, although the German Emperor kinda wants to set one up, more or less inspired by the current Byzantine model (and of course Charlemagne's earlier model).

But still, in many places, the idea of hiring someone on an on-going basis to do a job for you is alien. You can temporarily hire the services of someone, a mercenary or physician or the like, but the "hireling-as-permanent-employee" idea is alien. Instead, you buy a slave to do the job. Or of it is some kind of skilled work that is very rare in market terms, you "take in" someone capable of doing it, and roof and feed and clothe him (or in some case her - e.g. among the Kelts), generously, in exchange for on-going service.
I was thinking of the Italian city-states of the Renaissance when I referred to states.

The idea of being a full-time employee of another being wrong goes back to Ancient Greece. It was considered a form of slavery. That idea was killed by the guild system with its ranks of: Apprentice, Journeyman, Master. Since to qualify for the rank of Master one had to have the recommendation of various already existing Masters, Journeymen had to work for Masters on a long-term basis. So, if you have an area where guilds are strong, or becoming so, then the idea of working for another as separate from "taking someone in" will be taking hold. Especially if a money economy is taking hold at the same time.
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Old 03-15-2015, 07:30 AM   #39
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Default Re: TL 3-4 Slave Prices

Incidentally, eunuch slaves were very expensive and *highly* fashionable in Rome and various other slave cultures.

Just saying you might like to consider the social status aspects of slave owning. Same with Mexican maids and gardeners in LA; though they're not technically slaves ...
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Old 03-15-2015, 04:17 PM   #40
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Default Re: TL 3-4 Slave Prices

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Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
The closest comparison is sumptuary laws. The other two can be violated by hiding it. The third can only be violated by being powerful enough to get away with it. In fact there is no point in doing so other then showing that you are in fact powerful enough to get away with it(one does not wear fancy clothing in one's home).

Likewise there are people who get away with slavery even in countries where slaving is strongly disapproved of by the public as well as the law. Those are usually crime lords or their customers.
There is a spectrum from totally hidden to totally in plain sight.
Like how everyone knows Queen Examplea is an adulterer, but no one speaks about it in public. Open secrets.
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