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Old 07-23-2008, 10:56 PM   #41
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

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Originally Posted by nik1979
Well its not really an accurate measure of prices since these goods are now luxury goods and there is no a large supply in the market. I'm sure mass production, competition and huge demand created by wartime, the surplus after war, and the regular demand for these goods have a great impact in their price.
While I agree with the sentiment here, there is only so "massed produced" a custom fitted plate harness could be. In period I think they were made for individual clients. I don't think you just walked into the armor store where they had 20 or 30 of those suits of armor standing and bought a "medium" and left. But sure, with more demand for custom armor, the armours may offer you a discount to earn you business, but you get what you pay for, as always.

So back then they may have higher demand, but much more difficult production costs. Today we have low demand but less difficult production. *shrug* It might work out in the wash, or it might not. But on the other hand, a lot of the actual construction of the armour is done very similar to period - a skilled guy with a hammer.

Last edited by Gavynn; 07-23-2008 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:03 PM   #42
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

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This suit of armour will set you back $37,500.
That... is some very pretty armour. Oh to be a millionaire....
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:38 PM   #43
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

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Originally Posted by Gavynn
But on the other hand, a lot of the actual construction of the armour is done very similar to period - a skilled guy with a hammer.
Exactly. If the armor is produced using TL8 production techniques -- the steel plates are stamped out from high-speed hydraulic formers, TIG welded by robots, etc. -- then price would go down, no? As it is, you are paying an artisan to produce art, not a a retailer to produce a commercial product. Compare the price to TL8 body armor; Armoury/TL3 (Body Armor) and Armoury/TL8 (Body Armor) likely very different skills, no? Apples and oranges.
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:49 PM   #44
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

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While I agree with the sentiment here, there is only so "massed produced" a custom fitted plate harness could be. In period I think they were made for individual clients. I don't think you just walked into the armor store where they had 20 or 30 of those suits of armor standing and bought a "medium" and left. But sure, with more demand for custom armor, the armours may offer you a discount to earn you business, but you get what you pay for, as always.
Of course we really wouldn't know the economic model for such armorers. Its my fault for lumping plate in the mass produced section of the post but I meant many of the other expenses. Anyway, when your talking about plate your talking about the end of the medieval era, where the first full suit of plate was in the 15C and handgonnes were all the rage. I forgot that some pop culture has infused people with an image of a knight in Plate instead of Mail which was the choice of armor for about a thousand years.

it would be best to look at mail, scale and lamellar as to what would be found in the outfit of most knights. Especially when these armors were not only mass produced but are the most common knightly armor. When you look at plate your looking at a very tiny fraction of men at arms and knights, compared to looking at mail, scale and lamellar that include men at arms from the whole world.
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:55 AM   #45
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

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Exactly. If the armor is produced using TL8 production techniques -- the steel plates are stamped out from high-speed hydraulic formers, TIG welded by robots, etc. -- then price would go down, no? As it is, you are paying an artisan to produce art, not a a retailer to produce a commercial product. Compare the price to TL8 body armor; Armoury/TL3 (Body Armor) and Armoury/TL8 (Body Armor) likely very different skills, no? Apples and oranges.
I guess I am not really seeing any disagreement here. Maybe I am misunderstanding. I agree Armoury/TL3 (Body Armor) and Armoury/TL 8 (Body Armor) are different things. I was pointing out that in the Middle Ages if you wanted a suit of plate armor, you got a skilled artisan to create it and it would cost you. Today, if you want a suit of plate armor, you have to get a skilled artisan to create it, and it will cost you. IF there someone put all the TL8 production resources available into building a robotic factory to create suits of full plate in small, medium, and large, then I am sure the price would come down. But as it stands right now, if your TL8 adventurer (here on earth) wants a well made suit of armor, its gonna cost him, or he'll have to make concessions.

This is pretty much TL8 machine made. It's rolled. I doubt a hammer ever touches it. It even comes in M, L, and XL. :-) I guess some people will argue that it is far superior to a period breastplate and thus is double the DR or half the cost like it indicates in High-Tech, but I'd have another word for it - cheap - and assign it some penalties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik1979
Anyway, when your talking about plate your talking about the end of the medieval era, where the first full suit of plate was in the 15C and handgonnes were all the rage. I forgot that some pop culture has infused people with an image of a knight in Plate instead of Mail which was the choice of armor for about a thousand years. *snip*
Nope, I am well aware of mail and its transition to plate. Lets to a mail clad knight and see what we come up with:

Trained Warhorse: $5,000 (from Basic Set)
Hauberk - I'll price at a $1,000 to make it long sleeved with mufflers and integral coif. But this would be for reproduction riveted mail. You can get welded titanium mail around, and as per High-Tech that should cost 5x, so $5,000 for your Hauberk, that now weighs in at 1/3 of historic weight.
Mail Chauses - Harder to get for sure. Might have to be a custom order. I'll put you at $750 for the medieval version and five times that for the welded titanium if that is what you want.
Gambeson: I'll put you at $400.
Shoes and Hosen, etc.: I'll go $300.
Sword: Pick up one from Albion for $800
Dagger - also picked up from Albion (if they make them, I could not really find one on the site) lets say $450
Spear: Uck, don't know who actually makes good spears today. My girlfriend game me a spear head from Museum Replicas for Christmas once. It is mass produced, but I'd be hesitant to go into combat with it. They make a lot of wall-hanger and movie prop stuff. So I'd say you could have one for $50, but it'd be cheap, so be careful.
Saddle - I'll give you for less than the Historic Enterprises one since we are going back in period, but I don't think you want a modern riding saddle. Lets say for $3,000 you can get made what you need for saddle and the rest of the gear.

So where does that leave us? Much cheaper than with the plate that is for sure. For the medieval variety, you are looking at about $12,000. If you want to take advantage of the titanium mail, I think you are going to be pushing $16,000 or $17,000. But either way your horse is left unprotected which has the potential to be an expensive loss. And either way, you'd need to be Wealthy to outfit yourself thusly on your adventuring part of your starting cash, instead of being Very Wealthy. So sure, you can do it cheaper, but that would be expected, but you can't do it and be Struggling, for example.

But your right, this does not work if you are in TL8 society where Old Navy is producing S, M, and L gambesons you can buy off their rack. Maybe in that world Struggling college students would be able to outfit themselves as a knight much easier.

Eh, i thought it was an interesting exercise.

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Old 07-24-2008, 01:08 AM   #46
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

Men ... there's nothing such a mass produced plate armour.
If a plate armour is meant to be of some use it must be specifically crafted to tailor the wearer body.
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Old 07-24-2008, 01:26 AM   #47
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

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If the x20 is a workable upper limit, I'll just treat Fit as +1 MV for the purposes of cost and Very Fit as +2 MV. Then I'll use the added percentages of base price as a method instead of the multiplicitive modifiers that would yield costs in millions.
What about using the logic of Trading CP for money?
For a CP you get back a 10%(Y) of the campaign starting money. Thus you can state that a trait that costs X CP increases the base cost of the horse by +X*Y.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:06 AM   #48
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

You can mass produce helmets and cuirasses. They did it in the past - it was called munitions plate. But if you want a properly articulated full plate harness then it has to be custom made and custom fitted.
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Old 07-24-2008, 05:13 AM   #49
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

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Originally Posted by Gavynn
I guess I am not really seeing any disagreement here. Maybe I am misunderstanding. I agree Armoury/TL3 (Body Armor) and Armoury/TL 8 (Body Armor) are different things. I was pointing out that in the Middle Ages if you wanted a suit of plate armor, you got a skilled artisan to create it and it would cost you. Today, if you want a suit of plate armor, you have to get a skilled artisan to create it, and it will cost you. IF there someone put all the TL8 production resources available into building a robotic factory to create suits of full plate in small, medium, and large, then I am sure the price would come down. But as it stands right now, if your TL8 adventurer (here on earth) wants a well made suit of armor, its gonna cost him, or he'll have to make concessions.

This is pretty much TL8 machine made. It's rolled. I doubt a hammer ever touches it. It even comes in M, L, and XL. :-) I guess some people will argue that it is far superior to a period breastplate and thus is double the DR or half the cost like it indicates in High-Tech, but I'd have another word for it - cheap - and assign it some penalties.



Nope, I am well aware of mail and its transition to plate. Lets to a mail clad knight and see what we come up with:

Trained Warhorse: $5,000 (from Basic Set)
Hauberk - I'll price at a $1,000 to make it long sleeved with mufflers and integral coif. But this would be for reproduction riveted mail. You can get welded titanium mail around, and as per High-Tech that should cost 5x, so $5,000 for your Hauberk, that now weighs in at 1/3 of historic weight.
Mail Chauses - Harder to get for sure. Might have to be a custom order. I'll put you at $750 for the medieval version and five times that for the welded titanium if that is what you want.
Gambeson: I'll put you at $400.
Shoes and Hosen, etc.: I'll go $300.
Sword: Pick up one from Albion for $800
Dagger - also picked up from Albion (if they make them, I could not really find one on the site) lets say $450
Spear: Uck, don't know who actually makes good spears today. My girlfriend game me a spear head from Museum Replicas for Christmas once. It is mass produced, but I'd be hesitant to go into combat with it. They make a lot of wall-hanger and movie prop stuff. So I'd say you could have one for $50, but it'd be cheap, so be careful.
Saddle - I'll give you for less than the Historic Enterprises one since we are going back in period, but I don't think you want a modern riding saddle. Lets say for $3,000 you can get made what you need for saddle and the rest of the gear.

So where does that leave us? Much cheaper than with the plate that is for sure. For the medieval variety, you are looking at about $12,000. If you want to take advantage of the titanium mail, I think you are going to be pushing $16,000 or $17,000. But either way your horse is left unprotected which has the potential to be an expensive loss. And either way, you'd need to be Wealthy to outfit yourself thusly on your adventuring part of your starting cash, instead of being Very Wealthy. So sure, you can do it cheaper, but that would be expected, but you can't do it and be Struggling, for example.

But your right, this does not work if you are in TL8 society where Old Navy is producing S, M, and L gambesons you can buy off their rack. Maybe in that world Struggling college students would be able to outfit themselves as a knight much easier.

Eh, i thought it was an interesting exercise.
I suggest the following: Get that gambeson made somewhere else, $400? probably just $50 if you assemble (but not entirely make) it yourself if you know enough about sewing or if you're resourcefull $200-$100 if you get it made places where labor is cheaper and you can give easy instructions to a seamstress.

These are not the best prices for the average joe medieval buff. But again, a wannabe knight with a budget can be find interesting ways to cheapen the cost with TL8's global market.

Going back to horses, as it appears in most of the price references, it seems that the horse will always be the more expensive tool of the knight. No wonder only filthy rich to very wealthy knights can afford to attack horses. Other man at arms may need the horse to pay for expenses for the whole campaign. No wonder it was regarded as dishonorable to strike at an opponents horse.
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Old 07-24-2008, 09:41 AM   #50
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHoward
You can mass produce helmets and cuirasses. They did it in the past - it was called munitions plate. But if you want a properly articulated full plate harness then it has to be custom made and custom fitted.
There has been a few instances of mass produced modern plate armor -- at TL6 there were 30-50 sets of articulated armor made for the Army during WWI. They are serviceable, and made of very high quality steel. Bashford's books shows the pictures.

Modern riot armor is another instance. Granted, it's plastic in most cases (or aluminium or titanium) but it would be a very small thing (technologically speaking) to stamp the plates in aircraft grade titanium if you wanted. No doubt it would be incredibly inexpensive to smash out 10,000 suits like that, as compared to having a one-off made.

There's just no need and no market for that type of thing (yet!). So, it's still comparing TL3 production to TL3+5 artisans. Apples to oranges.
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