Fantasy Grounds Unity GURPS?

[Gigermann]

Originally Posted by DaosusLeghki

None of these features is possible for GURPS because of the SJG online policy.

This is not actually true. SJG has given limited permission for some automation to be done, and some of that development is ongoing. Unfortunately it's a one-man show—or a few men, at the moment.

But it's true that SJG doesn't have the resources to devote to this. Anyone looking to SJG to make this happen is looking in the wrong place. Whatever it is should be brought to the Fantasy Grounds GURPS community instead—with patience.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by RCathcart

SJG has run FORTY (40) successful Kickstarters, with only 1 failed campaign. I don’t buy the lack of resource argument.

That is what I thought was what was being asked for here.
Trouble is GURPS only has one full time staffer, everyone else works on other lines - some of which are much more profitable such as Munchkin, and perhaps the board games.
This is much like the VDS requests, that book is already written but the editorial time involved in getting it to published status would pretty much mean no new GURPS material for a year. That would certainly hurt the line, regardless of kickstarter funding.

[scc]

Originally Posted by DaosusLeghki

I suspect there may be more that is desired. Any online game aid is currently limited by the SJG online policy. For example, when playing DnD in Roll20, there is a compendium of items and monsters that you can just drag onto your game table or character sheet. When making characters, there is a character builder that walks you through the process. Also, you can look up rules in the compendium. None of these features is possible for GURPS because of the SJG online policy. -=Snip=-

There's actually another problem, one that Kromm has mentioned before, possibly in this very thread: SJG wants to ensure that any commercial developer (Because this would not be an in-house thing) that develops any GURPS module for any VTT platform sticks around and continues to support said module, so that people don't come to the game, purchase a module for GURPS only to find that said module is 5 years old and only covers the most basic/core of books.

Originally Posted by RCathcart

SJG has run FORTY (40) successful Kickstarters, with only 1 failed campaign. I don’t buy the lack of resource argument. If they ran a Kickstarter to bring GURPS to VTT, I bet it would get readily funded. Making all those wonderful books they have available to VTT platforms could give GURPS a second life. I also bet if you converted a book for one platform (say Fantasy Grounds), 90% of the work would be done for the next platform.

Imagine this. A Kickstarter to bring the core fourth edition GURPS books to Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds. Stretch goals would add the various other books GURPS already written. From a backers point of view, getting in on a potentially good-sized supply of converted GURPS content would be highly attractive.

Of course, it’s not all that simple. However, SJG has extensive Kickstarter experience. They presumably have enough business sense to draw up a game plan for this kind of endeavor. Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds are established, and fans of both would love to help. Licensing would have to be worked out, but that can be done.

If it fails, it fails. If so, then SJG is perfectly within its rights to dismiss VTT. But, if it succeeds… it could bring GURPS back from the dead and introduce it to generations of new gamers.

It's not a matter of money, or any other resources, it's the simple fact that SJG is NOT a software developer, and your expecting them to develop software.

[Willy]

Originally Posted by scc

It's not a matter of money, or any other resources, it's the simple fact that SJG is NOT a software developer, and your expecting them to develop software.

Also keep in mind that according to Steve SJG made bad experience with computer games ( Fallout 1 developped by Interplay / Black Isle ). Since resources ( either money and staff )) are in short supply and nobody from SJG is a specialist in that, it´s next to impossible that this will happen in the next time. Making the Girls Genius took 2 years and the full working time of a staff member, but still it´s just digital for a print edition Kickstarter is needed. I had friends in the independent game scene, making GURPS run on Fantasy Grounds would take more money and time, just for the Basic Set, imagine bringing the whole bunch of only 4th Ed stuff as digital assets is a BIGGER task. The new staff member introduced in the daily iluminator today want change that equotation.

The best we can hope for is that SJG is further ignoring the VTTs and game aids. Yes the company may let lay a big pile of money on the table, but in the end it´s Steves company and his money.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by RCathcart

Where on earth are you getting the idea that you need a software developer for this?

Because it _is_ software and it's a very rare piece of non-professionally done software that isn't buggy as all hell. We struggled through using Fantasy Grounds as no more than a character generator and map-sharing program last night. It was a good bit more trouble than it should have been.

There are reasons why we've gone back to face-to-face for the bulk of our gaming. This is why I say the revolution isn't quite here yet.

Even if it's only a professional ".json" editor rather than a complete developer. It defintitely takes a professional pdf editor to produce professional grade pdfs for commercial sale.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by RCathcart

One, SJG already produces "professional grade" pdfs in the form of their books. .

Yes, and those people are all busy. They're probably too busy to hire and supervise some sort of VTT person. Thus you'd be looking at a minimum of tw people needed.

Even if a Kickstarter did provide enough money to hire two people there's no guarantee that this would improve revenue enough to provide salaries for those people the next year much less profits.

The whole "industry" might be like that. Fantasy Grounds needs work it's not gotten yet and even D&D Beyond which is a product for the biggest market share game from the people with the biggest corporate parent might be mostly professional but is still not at all a complete experience.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by RCathcart

Where on earth are you getting the idea that you need a software developer for this?

You don't need to be a software developer to get GURPS books into VTT. The software end is taken care of by Fantasy Grounds/Roll20/Foundry, etc. That's like their whole schtick! SJG doesn't have to touch that. What they need to do is provide their GURPS book data in a standard format (like a .json file) that the software accepts. Now, there's a little bit more to it than that but not much. Once it's done, it's done. The book is on the FG or R20 store, and everyone at SJG can go to bed. The only kind of "maintenance" required would be fixing errata (which will crop up, inevitably)

You mentioned upthread having cross-referencing, and automation of wound levels and that sort of thing. Someone has to do all that, and then someone who is an expert in GURPS has to check that it's working as intended. That checking thing is the killer, and so is doing all the cross-referencing. Sure it's not programming. It's something else, something that takes a very specialised skill set that very few people have. JSGames has all of one person with that expertise right now - Kromm.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by RCathcart

Unfortunately, you don't know much about VTT. You clearly don't understand how limited a venture I propose. Converting a few books into VTT is hardly some herculean task. There are many tiny content creators that have materials on VTT platforms for sale. They aren't hiring extra people to manage VTT because they don't need to.

I never built a JSON file but some quick research shows its derived from JavaScript and I have done that.
I feel there are several considerations your sweeping aside as trivial and easy, mostly related to project management and staffing. These change things considerably from a small indy operation to a corp environment where you have long term budget, contracting, and marketing commitments.

• First, doing a few books opens the door to expectations of more - requiring a longer term investment
• A failed kickstarter is bad for business from a brand and marketing perspective, plus lost revenue and costs related to setting it up.
• Printed files go from Word to Indesign to PDF and printers have specific requirements and quirks that can affect final layout and costs. Its really not so simple as most think and requires special experiance.
• Converting from Word to Excell or some other application to put into a JSON file would require similar steps but a different person to double check the result and correct any errors from conversion. And there are ALWAYS conversion/editing problems.
• What does the file do with mathematical operators? Yen symbols? Quotes and punctuation?
• After a file has been produced and proofed multiple times to fix the bugs, how does it generate revenue?

Originally Posted by RCathcart

You also have no basis to suggest that SJG is "too busy" or would be incapable of managing a VTT business plan. In fact, a good VTT and KS plan would account for what SJG can and cannot do and budget accordingly. All you're telling me by making unfounded assumptions about SJG is that you don't like the idea. Super.

Actually he has a basis, as do I, and several other long time posters. The company itself has explained this numerous times. Essentially they have one full time GURPS person, some who work on other projects and pitch in at various stages (like layout and low crunch math light editing), and freelance authors and software developers (like GCA.GCCS, etc.).
Adding another publishing format would likely require doubling the staff and still take the line editor away from editing new content as he is the one trusted to doublecheck specific rule interpretations. And the head of and thus responsible for the entire GURPS line.
So your going to cut down on new products for existing customers and raise overhead costs for a new platform. Oh and I doubt FGU Unity, Foundry VTT, and Roll20 all would take the exact same files with no further editing.
So who gets it first or do you go all in and increase expenses even more by catering to multiple platforms? Who will be satisfied and how many complaints will you have to field from those not at the front of the line? Or even the specific books they most want.
Sounds like a marketing nightmare to me.

Originally Posted by RCathcart

Moreover, you are not considering the dynamics of Kickstarter. If the KS fails, there's the doom-laden answer of which I'm sure you'd approve. However, if the KS does well, that provides the necessary financing and customer response to proceed and opens up new sales platforms from which SJG can profit with little additional work.

And if it fails or does not raise enough to cover the job you just wasted a lot of manpower and resources. Plus took a marketing hit that others will be quick to exploit. The internet loves to hate, so fail and you'll have plenty of people shouting how GURPS is dead and SJG is doomed.

And if it does succeed you still have to generate revenue from new sales to justify the ongoing expense to convert additional material.
You seem to be trivializing the costs and risks and quite possibly overstating the potential gains.
Would each platform generate an extra $100k in annual revenue? After the overhead and factoring in lost profits from existing channels, I would estimate that to be a minimum acceptable target for break even.
Admittedly I don't have access to the numbers to make more than an educated guess based on my prior work for other corporations.
In my experience its very easy to underestimate costs and over estimate profits, this is why so many companies fail and SJG is a rare exception in its field.
The GURPS line is relatively flat but the company health overall is remarkable and outlasted almost all the competition. Only Flying Buffalo stands with them, TSR, Grenadier, Metagaming, Chaoisim, White Wolf, WoTC, and many many others have come and gone, or had to be sold during Steve Jackson Games history of 30+ years.


Please understand, most of us would like to see GURPS expand its presence and grow in any way possible. That includes VTT, we just don't want to lose what we have chasing rainbows and are relying on SJG proven track record of mostly good business decisions rather than telling them how to run their business. You want VTT "official" support? write up a formal business plan and send it to them, only they have access to the numbers to make the best call and in the end they are the ones taking all the financial risks.

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

That doesn't mean I like any particular VTT experience I've had.

I'd strongly recommend that you take a look at Foundry VTT with the GGA (Gurps Game Assistant) module. They guys working on it are active on the foruums here and on their github, and they're officially unofficial (meaning they have been approved by SJG to do what they're doing).

It's not simple, but it's not too hard. It takes some time, but it's very playable. It's not perfect, but it is great. I have no association other than I'm using it. Foundry costs $50- and you can use something like The Forge to host it for not a lot per month and it brings in simple access to additional modules (not D&D modules, although those also exist) which can add to the experience and functionality, mostly for free. I don't have experience with FG, only Roll20 and Foundry. This is not to suggest FG isn't good - it's been around for ages so it's obviously got a lot going for it that it's still a top choice, but different systems will appeal to different folks is all.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by DaosusLeghki

• Shouting down people who wish to see the game succeed and see what appears to be some low hanging fruit does not encourage further suggestions from well-wishers. We are, of course, not SJG and can't make the business decision. But we can at least float some ideas. Maybe one gets used. But people won't float ideas if they get shut down every time someone tries.
  

I don't feel people are shouting him down, though obviously he has felt that way. Were just laying out facts and for many of us this si an old hashed and rehashed topic. As you say we have a remarkable amount of info on SJG, staffing, top sales figures, etc.
Also some of us have worked professionally in these kind of situations and have some experience.
I personally have had to deal with people who asked and demanded for things without understanding the underlying costs and time involved and it was very frustrating. One time it cost my company over a million dollars and at least one person was fired over it.

Originally Posted by DaosusLeghki

• Other game companies (not WotC) have managed to get their content onto VTTs. I believe Pinnacle has one guy working full time on Savage Worlds as well, and there are resources to buy on Foundry and Roll20 and even a free intro module on Foundry. Adventures purchased from PEG usually come with VTT assets.
  
  
• There seems to be a lot of expectation of very high quality achievable only by Kromm and a promise of support for years to come from a VTT. This seems to be a case of the perfect being the enemy of the good. Perhaps this is a place to compromise in order to increase the game's visibility?
  

So were looking at doubling the staff and adding from $60 to $100k payroll just for the programmers annual salary. SJG could try and get an entry level programmer and pay subpar wages but that does not seem to be their style.

And the example we have is VDS which seems a decent fit. That is mostly number crunching and rules understanding. Lets say Kromm devotes 25% of his time to checking the code, that is 1 less supplement every 4 months that the current customer base cant make any purchases on. And at that rate I doubt he would get the checking done in a fast fashion.

So adding salary and lost revenue during the project phase, however long that would take.
Its great that other companies like Pinnacle can do this, but every company has different considerations. For SJG GURPS unfortunately has a small dedicated base but is a very small part of the companies revenue.

Originally Posted by DaosusLeghki

• There are lots of reasons why VTTs can't be done, but not much out of the box thinking on how to do it. What about licensing someone to do it: they do the work, Kromm checks it when it's done, they charge money, SJG gets a cut? What about doing an extended playtest to ferret out any required errata? Restrict it to people who have bought the Basic Set if necessary. Or offer playtest spots for sale, with the promise of a copy of the relevant VTT assets once the project is done.

Some good thoughts here.
Licensing has risks and they have shown reluctance to do that after being burned by Fallout. Kromm checking it is still a considerable time sink, I feel people keep missing how much time it takes to edit a book or code. I have done both, its boring (not nearly as much fun as creating content) and time consuming. Especially with a lot of numbers, tables, etc.

The playtest could help a good deal though.
Still seems to be missing a good return on investment form new revenue though. So you are getting more marketing, but how much of that would turn into new sales? I dont think we can really know till its tried.
I am worried GURPS could die with a long hiatus on new content, or a big loss of money.