Nerfing the Thrown and Missile Weapons talents

hcobb · 12-06-2018, 05:07 PM

The nerf is simple. Just require a high enough base DX to rule out the primary use of these talents which is to treat DX as a dump stat.

http://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#Talents

platimus · 12-06-2018, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb

Just require a high enough base DX to rule out the primary use of these talents which is to treat DX as a dump stat.

What do you mean by "treat DX as a dump stat"? I always thought a "dump stat" was a stat that people put a lot of points into. Requiring a higher DX encourages that even more.

I looked at your version of Thrown Weapons. To your credit, in light of requiring a higher DX, you did nerf the +2 DX bonus of Thrown Weapons. You replaced it with greater range. I'm not really a fan of these changes.

Skarg · 12-07-2018, 12:18 AM

To me, the issue with those talents is not that people then use DX as a dump stat, but that taking them as starting characters effectively gives you a better fighter than other starting fighters who don't. And, that it seems to represent expertise, which doesn't seem particularly fitting for beginning adventurers unless you want them to represent someone gifted.

i.e. They're worth about +2-3 points of DX each, and only cost talent slots.

I think the main fair way I'd address that, if I wanted to, would be to simple not allow starting characters to start with those talents (nor Fencing, Expert/Master, UC III+, etc).

Then there's the other issue of making aimed shots (or handfuls of sha-ken or whatever) relatively easy - eventually stacking bonuses can sort of break the intended difficulty of such things. Changing the effect so it reduces effective range but does not increase adj DX over base DX more or less handles that. Again, if desired.

platimus · 12-07-2018, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg

To me, the issue with those talents is not that people then use DX as a dump stat, but that taking them as starting characters effectively gives you a better fighter than other starting fighters who don't. And, that it seems to represent expertise, which doesn't seem particularly fitting for beginning adventurers unless you want them to represent someone gifted.

Well, yes, a fighter with talent is going to be a better fighter than one without talent. Isn't that the point? Whether or not you allow "beginning" characters to have those talents is a completely subjective, personal decision. I don't have a problem with beginning characters having Expertise per se because "beginning" does not equal "inexperienced and incompetent" in my mind.

However, it would bother me if a beginning character had too many "expertise" talents. I think that's only possible if they start with a really high IQ. I think that would mean that their other stats suffered though, so I might be OK with it. But this is one of the reasons why I wish #of talents/spells known were completely separated from IQ. I would prefer that all beginning characters start with 10 points of talents/spells to dampen their potential for bad-assery at beginning levels.

hcobb · 12-07-2018, 08:37 AM

I also cap starting spells at IQ 14. It wouldn't help to lower that as an IQ 14 wizard can cast any IQ 14 spell he finds a book for.

larsdangly · 12-07-2018, 10:13 AM

This doesn't seem to me like a talent that unbalances the game; the proof of the pudding is that lots of newly designed characters don't take it. It is a +1-3 situational DX bonus, for a weapon type that has its own limitations and frequent DX penalties. Yes, it's better to have it than not, but I don't see it as something that substantially tilts the balance in fights.

hcobb · 12-07-2018, 10:28 AM

Light Crossbow sniper
ST 12, DX 11, IQ 9
Light Crossbow(2d) fires every turn at DX 14 or 15
Crossbow, Missile Weapons III

platimus · 12-07-2018, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb

Light Crossbow sniper
ST 12, DX 11, IQ 9
Light Crossbow(2d) fires every turn at DX 14 or 15
Crossbow, Missile Weapons III

Concerning the text in bold, Why/how is it at DX 14 or 15? MW I would be +1 (adjDX12). MW II = adjDX13. MW III = adjDX14. Where does the 15 come from?

Even at adjDX14, that is pretty powerful. I would ignore/throw-away the DX14+ rule that allows the crossbow to fire every turn.

Skarg · 12-07-2018, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by platimus

Well, yes, a fighter with talent is going to be a better fighter than one without talent. Isn't that the point? Whether or not you allow "beginning" characters to have those talents is a completely subjective, personal decision. I don't have a problem with beginning characters having Expertise per se because "beginning" does not equal "inexperienced and incompetent" in my mind.

Yes, and FWIW I don't really mind myself.

Note though that there is no "Melee Weapons" talent that adds +2 to +3 to your DX. There is Expert and Fencer now, which do though let you take a weird starting Expert if you have enough IQ (...). Thrown Weapons is IQ 8 though so requires no attribute shift, and Missile Weapons requires only a 1-point shift from DX to IQ to get +3 adjDX with missile weapons.

The main issue is that if you accept that no-Talent Melee starting fighters are well balanced, then you'll notice that if you pit them against ST 12 DX 11(14) IQ 9 crossbow/broadsword/shield fighters (1 2d shot per turn) and/or ST 10 DX 13(16) IQ 9 archer/sword/shield fighters (2 1d shots per turn), those tend to perform as well as 35 point fighters - i.e. they have a very high kill rate versus 32-point fighters without them unless they get jumped before they can shoot or the horsebowman meets people in armor.

i.e. If you care about balance in starting characters (which apparently people do if they don't mind starting PC reptile men and gargoyles being listed as only 32 points), then you should at least notice this and perhaps consider giving some compensation to starting PCs who don't take these advantages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb

I also cap starting spells at IQ 14. It wouldn't help to lower that as an IQ 14 wizard can cast any IQ 14 spell he finds a book for.

Nice house rule, though certainly there is a big effect of needing a book, as the book needs to exist, you need to get it and an attuned wizard's chest to use it to cast spells, it takes longer to cast from a book, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by platimus

Concerning the text in bold, Why/how is it at DX 14 or 15?

Crossbowmen firing prone get +1 DX.

larsdangly · 12-07-2018, 01:06 PM

Yes, a 'william tell' sort of character (crossbow with maximum missile weapons talent) is dangerous if he's all lined up and ready to fire at you. So what? Lots of character types are dangerous in the right circumstances. Here's an even better sniper (in the right circumstances):

ST 8 DX 15(18) IQ 9
Guns, Missile Weapons 3
Arquebus (3d+3 damage, nearly assured hit out to 6-8 MH range)

12-06-2018, 05:07 PM	#1
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Nerfing the Thrown and Missile Weapons talents The nerf is simple. Just require a high enough base DX to rule out the primary use of these talents which is to treat DX as a dump stat. http://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#Talents __________________ -HJC

12-07-2018, 12:18 AM	#3
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Nerfing the Thrown and Missile Weapons talents To me, the issue with those talents is not that people then use DX as a dump stat, but that taking them as starting characters effectively gives you a better fighter than other starting fighters who don't. And, that it seems to represent expertise, which doesn't seem particularly fitting for beginning adventurers unless you want them to represent someone gifted. i.e. They're worth about +2-3 points of DX each, and only cost talent slots. I think the main fair way I'd address that, if I wanted to, would be to simple not allow starting characters to start with those talents (nor Fencing, Expert/Master, UC III+, etc). Then there's the other issue of making aimed shots (or handfuls of sha-ken or whatever) relatively easy - eventually stacking bonuses can sort of break the intended difficulty of such things. Changing the effect so it reduces effective range but does not increase adj DX over base DX more or less handles that. Again, if desired.

12-07-2018, 08:37 AM	#5
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Re: Nerfing the Thrown and Missile Weapons talents I also cap starting spells at IQ 14. It wouldn't help to lower that as an IQ 14 wizard can cast any IQ 14 spell he finds a book for. __________________ -HJC

12-07-2018, 10:13 AM	#6
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Nerfing the Thrown and Missile Weapons talents This doesn't seem to me like a talent that unbalances the game; the proof of the pudding is that lots of newly designed characters don't take it. It is a +1-3 situational DX bonus, for a weapon type that has its own limitations and frequent DX penalties. Yes, it's better to have it than not, but I don't see it as something that substantially tilts the balance in fights.

12-07-2018, 10:28 AM	#7
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Re: Nerfing the Thrown and Missile Weapons talents Light Crossbow sniper ST 12, DX 11, IQ 9 Light Crossbow(2d) fires every turn at DX 14 or 15 Crossbow, Missile Weapons III __________________ -HJC

12-07-2018, 01:06 PM	#10
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Nerfing the Thrown and Missile Weapons talents Yes, a 'william tell' sort of character (crossbow with maximum missile weapons talent) is dangerous if he's all lined up and ready to fire at you. So what? Lots of character types are dangerous in the right circumstances. Here's an even better sniper (in the right circumstances): ST 8 DX 15(18) IQ 9 Guns, Missile Weapons 3 Arquebus (3d+3 damage, nearly assured hit out to 6-8 MH range)