IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by Skarg

500 XP per IQ point plus 500 more XP per spell that doesn't use another IQ point, e.g. Staff II or 4-hex Illusion.

Those are two different cases.

Page 18: "Each level of Staff is a prerequisite to the next."

Page 137: "A Creation Spell for a given area includes all the spells of the same type for lesser areas."

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Those are two different cases.

Page 18: "Each level of Staff is a prerequisite to the next."

Page 137: "A Creation Spell for a given area includes all the spells of the same type for lesser areas."

They are different wordings, as one was written decades after the other.

Don't they have the same effect?

i.e. If I have the required level of starting IQ for Staff II, don't I get Staff I and Staff II (same for Illusion and 4-hex Illusion) for one talent/spell point?

And if I know Illusion and raise my IQ enough to learn 4-hex Illusion, don't I (RAW) still need to spend 500 XP to learn 4-hex Illusion?

[larsdangly]

The new RAW clearly increase the value of IQ as a stat at the start of play. We are accustomed to heroes who start with the minimum IQ of 8, reaching up to 9 or 10 if they want to draw on relatively advanced talents, whereas now players will be tempted to think of 9-10 as a normal base line and will contemplate going as high as 11 or maybe even 12. I think this is very healthy as it opens up the 'design space' for starting characters, and leads to more balanced and interesting PC's. All of these high IQ heroes have intriguing capabilities, but they also suffer from lower ST and DX. This, in turn, raises the effective value of high ST or DX scores (because they are less common and have greater advantage over foes). Anything that opens up new possibilities for 'valid' character designs (in this context, meaning 'competitive in combat') is a good thing.

[hcobb]

Talents can substitute for ST and DX.

This is clearest in the case of the Light Crossbow sniper with three levels of Missile Weapons, but those shrewd blows hit like much higher ST weapons.

[larsdangly]

'Missile Weapons' talent doesn't provide a damage bonus for 'shrewd blows'. Did you mean that in some other way? Like, were you referring to the optional aimed shot system (which doesn't increase damage but has other effects)?

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

'Missile Weapons' talent doesn't provide a damage bonus for 'shrewd blows'. Did you mean that in some other way? Like, were you referring to the optional aimed shot system (which doesn't increase damage but has other effects)?

No I meant the shrewd blows of other talents to sub in for ST.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

The new RAW clearly increase the value of IQ as a stat at the start of play. We are accustomed to heroes who start with the minimum IQ of 8, reaching up to 9 or 10 if they want to draw on relatively advanced talents, whereas now players will be tempted to think of 9-10 as a normal base line and will contemplate going as high as 11 or maybe even 12. I think this is very healthy as it opens up the 'design space' for starting characters, and leads to more balanced and interesting PC's. All of these high IQ heroes have intriguing capabilities, but they also suffer from lower ST and DX. This, in turn, raises the effective value of high ST or DX scores (because they are less common and have greater advantage over foes). Anything that opens up new possibilities for 'valid' character designs (in this context, meaning 'competitive in combat') is a good thing.

I completely disagree with the first sentence but completely agree with the rest. In both the old and new rules, you get starting talent points equal to starting IQ.

[Skarg]

The issue isn't with the start of play, though, but with what happens during the first 500 XP to 2000 XP or so. The RAW creates a bizarre situation where no one can learn talents without spending as much XP as it takes to make a massive difference in the ability level of a character by raising attributes.

That by itself is a huge issue to me.

But even worse is the imbalance between a character who starts with high IQ (and therefore talents), and a character with less IQ who then tries to buy talents with XP. A few points in IQ can be worth THOUSANDS of XP in talent/spell-learning savings.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by Skarg

The issue isn't with the start of play, though, but with what happens during the first 500 XP to 2000 XP or so. The RAW creates a bizarre situation where no one can learn talents without spending as much XP as it takes to make a massive difference in the ability level of a character by raising attributes.

That by itself is a huge issue to me.

I have zero issues with this and don't understand yours.

But even worse is the imbalance between a character who starts with high IQ (and therefore talents), and a character with less IQ who then tries to buy talents with XP. A few points in IQ can be worth THOUSANDS of XP in talent/spell-learning savings.

Since nothing has changed for starting characters between new and old, I have zero issues with this either. What stopped players from creating new characters with high IQs in the old rules? Nothing but the threat of death in combat. Nothing has changed there.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by platimus

Since nothing has changed for starting characters between new and old, I have zero issues with this either. What stopped players from creating new characters with high IQs in the old rules? Nothing but the threat of death in combat. Nothing has changed there.

I don't think his issue is with starting characters and the expenditure of IQ during that initial development phase, but rather the design imbalance that results from divesting the aquisition of talents/spells from IQ afterwards and the gap during which the purchase of IQ using XP is more economical than purchasing talents or spells directly.

I have the same issue which has led me to restore the post-creation connection between IQ and talents/spells as defined by the original TFT rules.