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Old 08-09-2011, 06:04 PM   #31
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
We aren't talking about a platoon drill done by the 10th Mountain. We are talking about an Elite CT unit that must be able to execute this type of mission where hostages are present, and be able to consistently do it, every time.
My main skepticism is from the implication that the trainees were just shoved into a room with no briefing, and no orders to sit still, and then the demonstrators kicked in the door and starting sending rounds downrange. The chance of one the trainees to then just accidentally be in the line of fire is too high to be believable; somebody would have to answer for why a trainee got shot by an instructor in training, and I don't care how much of a snake eater you are, nobody gets to be a staff officer by signing off on risks like that. It's much more likely that the trainees were specifically placed and ordered not to move.

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Did you serve in any Tier 1 units? Did you train with them? I've never done this either in my entire service. Then again, I was never part of Delta, DEVGRU, or the FBI Hostage Rescue Team.
No, I was just a regular 0341 Mortarman in a reserve Weapons Company. On the other hand I've never seen anybody trained to fire from the hip in CQB, and I seriously doubt that Delta is.
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Old 08-09-2011, 06:27 PM   #32
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Default Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
It's much more likely that the trainees were specifically placed and ordered not to move.
From what I understand, the individuals are told to place themselves randomly so that the assaulters specifically do not know where they will be, but that once they are placed they are told to remain still during the actual assault. Remember that much of their extensive training up to this point has focused on remaining calm during combat situations.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
On the other hand I've never seen anybody trained to fire from the hip in CQB, and I seriously doubt that Delta is.
There is not normally any desirable reason to fire from the hip, but I know that SEALs are specifically trained (in the event of a primary weapon failure) to point their pistol towards the enemy as soon as possible upon clearing the holster, and to fire the weapon even as they are still bringing it up to an aimed firing position.
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:06 PM   #33
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Default Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
My main skepticism is from the implication that the trainees were just shoved into a room with no briefing, and no orders to sit still, and then the demonstrators kicked in the door and starting sending rounds downrange. The chance of one the trainees to then just accidentally be in the line of fire is too high to be believable; somebody would have to answer for why a trainee got shot by an instructor in training, and I don't care how much of a snake eater you are, nobody gets to be a staff officer by signing off on risks like that. It's much more likely that the trainees were specifically placed and ordered not to move.
Ahhh, I see what you mean. Gotcha. I didn't make it clear, but the "trainees" were not buck-privates right out of basic. All of them were at LEAST E-5s, most of them were Rangers or SF (at the time, Haney was an E-6 in a platoon Sgt slot in one of the Ranger regiments, and had seen action before), and pretty much all of the types who would freak out at a situation like that had already been weeded out via the Selection phase.

Also, this wasn't day 1 of training either. This was after Delta Selection, and the previous months were spent all day putting rounds down range.

One more thing I'd like to mention here. The trainees were supposed to represent hostages who didn't know what was about to happen. That's the point. You cannot count on the fact that hostages in real life will sit still and not move/not react to flash-bangs and room clearing. You've got to be able to kill the tangos and not hit the hostages, even if they jump all over the place, freaking out.

For what it's worth, if the instructors really did clear the room in 3 - 6 seconds right after a flash-bang in an enclosed room, I would bet that normal people wouldn't have the time or the wherewithal to do much of anything other than sit still, or maybe put their heads between their legs.

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No, I was just a regular 0341 Mortarman in a reserve Weapons Company. On the other hand I've never seen anybody trained to fire from the hip in CQB, and I seriously doubt that Delta is.
It could be my ignorance of the GURPS rules, but I did not think that the MandA Maneuver coupled with the CQB technique indicated "firing from the hip." Yes, I agree that it is seriously unlikely the Delta Cadre were shooting from the hip. And so, yes, I'm 100% willing to accept now that it was most likely an example of AoA(Determined) with 1/2 move, than MandA w/CQB.

This is the reason I posted this request on the forums in the first place. So the community could help me understand how to express this sort of scenario in GURPS mechanics.
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:51 PM   #34
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator

We can probably all agree on certain things:

The SFOD-D guys were almost certainly using Sighted Shooting (Tactical Shooting, p. 13). Thus, they were doing AoA (Determined), possibly Braced.

They probably didn't Aim.

Their movement through the room was PROBABLY one or two seconds worth of half-moves to enter, and then Step and AoA if they need to proceed through an initial point.

Non-combat bonuses (Tactical Shooting, p. 9) doesn't give much slack here. "No risk to self" doesn't qualify; others are shooting very near you. "No risk to others" likewise, due to presence of friendlies, even stationary ones. Range and speed are not precisely known (for the full +3), but the operators probably know the bracket they're in (0 yds to the length of the room, well known), and they know unmoving target. Probably +1 or +2 here. "No political or military stake in the outcome" may or may not qualify, I'd guess not. The room is not an outdoor range (for +1), but not a perfectly controlled indoor one either, and the random setup of the room probably moves it closer to +1 or +2; I doubt the friendly exercise has things on the floor to purposefully trip up a good guy. Let's say bonuses could range from +2 to +5 even for this exercise, and we'll round down and say +3.

If we assume fully bought off TA (Vitals) or TA (Face) that's Vitals at -2 or Face at -3.

Let's give full credit for AoA (Determined) and Braced.

So, if we assume a net of 15 skill

Bonuses: +3
AoA and Braced: +2
Range -2
Target -2 (Vitals) or -3 (Face)
Want two hits: -3 for Rcl
No penalties for CQB.

Looks like we can get by with an 18 on this if we assume that +3 total non-combat bonus. Eliminating this and being able to do this in "true" combat would require Guns (Rifle)-21 . . . which again, I don't doubt. That would mean that the shoot-house exercise is something that these guys could absorb a couple of "whoa!, that's different!" penalties and still have a near-zero rate of friendly fire.

Factor in Luck (as in, they make their own) and a few rerolls later, these guys can do this repeatedly and assuredly.
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Old 08-10-2011, 04:19 AM   #35
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Default Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
We can probably all agree on certain things:

The SFOD-D guys were almost certainly using Sighted Shooting (Tactical Shooting, p. 13). Thus, they were doing AoA (Determined), possibly Braced.

They probably didn't Aim.

Their movement through the room was PROBABLY one or two seconds worth of half-moves to enter, and then Step and AoA if they need to proceed through an initial point.

Non-combat bonuses (Tactical Shooting, p. 9) doesn't give much slack here. "No risk to self" doesn't qualify; others are shooting very near you. "No risk to others" likewise, due to presence of friendlies, even stationary ones. Range and speed are not precisely known (for the full +3), but the operators probably know the bracket they're in (0 yds to the length of the room, well known), and they know unmoving target. Probably +1 or +2 here. "No political or military stake in the outcome" may or may not qualify, I'd guess not. The room is not an outdoor range (for +1), but not a perfectly controlled indoor one either, and the random setup of the room probably moves it closer to +1 or +2; I doubt the friendly exercise has things on the floor to purposefully trip up a good guy. Let's say bonuses could range from +2 to +5 even for this exercise, and we'll round down and say +3.

If we assume fully bought off TA (Vitals) or TA (Face) that's Vitals at -2 or Face at -3.

Let's give full credit for AoA (Determined) and Braced.

So, if we assume a net of 15 skill

Bonuses: +3
AoA and Braced: +2
Range -2
Target -2 (Vitals) or -3 (Face)
Want two hits: -3 for Rcl
No penalties for CQB.

Looks like we can get by with an 18 on this if we assume that +3 total non-combat bonus. Eliminating this and being able to do this in "true" combat would require Guns (Rifle)-21 . . . which again, I don't doubt. That would mean that the shoot-house exercise is something that these guys could absorb a couple of "whoa!, that's different!" penalties and still have a near-zero rate of friendly fire.

Factor in Luck (as in, they make their own) and a few rerolls later, these guys can do this repeatedly and assuredly.

Thanks Doug. That is exactly what I was looking for.

So for an SOFD-D Assaulter who has been in the unit for 5+ years, a Guns skill of 21 is not cinematic or out of scope for a realistic game, then.

I do have a follow-up question, though.

Since TS defines "Sighted shooting" as being limited to AoA, when would a trained CQB Operator (Delta, DEVGRU, GSG-9, SAS, etc.) actually make use of the CBQ Technique?

Does the CBQ technique really represent moving at a run and firing from the hip? It seems odd that a game technique called "Close Quarters Battle" would not likely be used or trained by any of the units who spend more time than anyone else training and fighting at close quarters.
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Old 08-10-2011, 06:36 AM   #36
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Default Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
Thanks Doug. That is exactly what I was looking for.

So for an SOFD-D Assaulter who has been in the unit for 5+ years, a Guns skill of 21 is not cinematic or out of scope for a realistic game, then.

I do have a follow-up question, though.

Since TS defines "Sighted shooting" as being limited to AoA, when would a trained CQB Operator (Delta, DEVGRU, GSG-9, SAS, etc.) actually make use of the CBQ Technique?

Does the CBQ technique really represent moving at a run and firing from the hip? It seems odd that a game technique called "Close Quarters Battle" would not likely be used or trained by any of the units who spend more time than anyone else training and fighting at close quarters.
CQB describes shooting on the move at close quarters. The first guy in the door has to take his shots using this ability (otherwise, only 2 people get in the door in 1 second, and if you watch a room clearing on a video, they can double that or more. He's not using TA:Skull. He's probably just using TA: Vitals or even just plain old TA:Torso (holes in the chest don't guarantee hits to the vitals, and once more if I put 2 9mm slugs in your chest, you will fall down. You may not die right away, but between the flashbang and the bullets, you probably won't be doing anything much more complicated that letting go of a deadman's switch.
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Old 08-10-2011, 07:08 AM   #37
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Default Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator

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CQB describes shooting on the move at close quarters. The first guy in the door has to take his shots using this ability (otherwise, only 2 people get in the door in 1 second, and if you watch a room clearing on a video, they can double that or more. He's not using TA:Skull. He's probably just using TA: Vitals or even just plain old TA:Torso (holes in the chest don't guarantee hits to the vitals, and once more if I put 2 9mm slugs in your chest, you will fall down. You may not die right away, but between the flashbang and the bullets, you probably won't be doing anything much more complicated that letting go of a deadman's switch.
All out attacks instead of move and attacks. Gives them half move and if foes are stunned or surprised is not risky.
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Old 08-10-2011, 07:47 AM   #38
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Default Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator

So CQB is about after the flashbang wears off?
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:17 AM   #39
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Default Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator

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CQB describes shooting on the move at close quarters. The first guy in the door has to take his shots using this ability (otherwise, only 2 people get in the door in 1 second, and if you watch a room clearing on a video, they can double that or more. He's not using TA:Skull. He's probably just using TA: Vitals or even just plain old TA:Torso (holes in the chest don't guarantee hits to the vitals, and once more if I put 2 9mm slugs in your chest, you will fall down. You may not die right away, but between the flashbang and the bullets, you probably won't be doing anything much more complicated that letting go of a deadman's switch.
Okay, so just to make sure I'm squared away on this, we are saying that the first two guys through the door will take a MandA maneuver (CBQ applies) for the first turn, and then take AoA(Det) (CQB does not apply) maneuvers for the next 2+ turns, right?

So basically, as long as you only need to move 1/2 your base move or less, you use AoA(Det) and don't get any penalties for shooting AND moving. It's only when you need to move more than 1/2 you base move that HAVE to take a MandA maneuver, and that's where you take the -2 or Bulk penalty, and that's the only maneuver where the CQB technique comes into play.

Or is there something mechanically that I am missing with the rules?

Last edited by TheOneRonin; 08-11-2011 at 04:27 AM.
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:28 AM   #40
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Default Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator

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Okay, so just to make sure I'm squared away on this, we are saying that the first two guys through the door will take a MandA maneuver (CBQ applies) for the first turn, and then take AoA(Det) (CQB does not apply) maneuvers for the next 2+ turns, right?

So basically, as long as you only need to move 1/2 your base move or less, you use AoA(Det) and don't get any penalties for shooting AND moving. It's only when you need to move more than 1/2 you base move that HAVE to take a MandA maneuver, and that's where you take the -2 or Bulk penalty, and that's the only maneuver where the CQB technique comes into play.

Or is there something mechanically that I am missing with the rules?
The main reason people don't all out attack is loosing your defenses. If that is not a concern it is a good choice. You could also do an aggressive attack for two steps.
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