Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator

[TheOneRonin]

Coming off of finishing Eric L. Haney's Inside Delta Force, and having previously read Beckwith's Delta Force and Dalton Fury's Kill Bin Laden, I've decided to do my best to create the best approximation of a Delta Operator/Assaulter, circa current day. My tools for this exercise are the Basic set, High Tech, SEALs in Vietnam, and Tactical Shooting.

One of the troubles I'm having is building my Operator to the level where he can accomplish what seems to be something that, per Eric Haney, is part of the Delta OTC and something that all Delta operators must be capable of doing.

About a third of the way through the book (my Kindle edition doesn't have page numbers), Haney talks about his experience in the Delta "Shoot House". Basically, he and the rest of the trainees sat in a mockup of an house with mannequins...some were hostages, and some were terrorists. Here's an excerpt:

================================================== =======

Our OTC class, all 23 of us, was taken in to the big room of the Shooting House. Some were seated on the sofa, some sat around a card table, more were scattered around the corners, and the rest stood in a the center of the room.

<snip>

What happened next was so fast, it was impossible to follow. The room erupted in noise and violent action. On the first "Execute!" the door to the room blasted open and I could see Allen [Delta Cadre] coming through at a run. At the very instant he came in, something flew from his hand toward the ceiling at the center of the room and exploded. I tried to watch the team as they came in, by my eye - and everyone else's - had been irresistibly drawn to that flying flash-bang. When it exploded above our heads, I hardly heard the pistols and submachine guns going off all around us. I was stunned motionless.

It was over in less than 3 seconds. Our instructors were posted all about the room. Allen was in one corner and Mike [Delta Cadre] was in the opposite diagonal corner. Bob [Delta Cadre] was just to the left of the door and Bill [Delta Cadre] was just to the right.

<snip>

I looked around the room and saw that each 'terrorist' had two bullet holes in a vital spot: either the head, the center of chest, or the throat. How the hell had they done that with us all around the room and intermingled with the targets? It seemed impossible, that all of hose bullets missed us. Someone should have been hit - but we were all whole and unperforated. It was unreal?

================================================== =======

Even giving Mr. Haney some consideration for dramatic license, this is exactly the sort of thing that a real-life Delta operator should be able to do.

Sticking within the "Guns Skill Levels" sidebar on page 42 of Tactical Shooting, the Delta Assaulters' GUNS skill should cap at about 18.

So, say our Operator has Guns(SMG) at 18. Let's say he also has bought CBQ (SMGs) up to Guns +4, and has TA: Skull bought up to -3 from -7.

Assuming the "terrorists" are no further than 5 yards away (-2 to skill), the operator is performing a "Move and Attack" maneuver (which precludes the possibility of any Aim actions" and is firing ar ROF 2 (controlled pairs) with an MP5A3 at the skull of the terrorists (-3), you come out with a modified skill of 13. You'll need to roll 11 or less on 3d6 to have both shots hit the skull.

This means that a VERY skilled shooter (Guns 18 + techniques maxed) only has a 62% chance of making those shots. If you ask me 62% isn't going to be good enough to pass the Delta OTC. On the other hand, a skill level of 21, which would end up with a 90% chance to pull off those shots, seems absurdly high for a realistic game.

Is there something I'm missing? Is my math off. Or is this skill level something that GURPS simply cannot represent without superhuman levels of Guns skill?

[lexington]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Even giving Mr. Haney some consideration for dramatic license, this is exactly the sort of thing that a real-life Delta operator should be able to do.

Sticking within the "Guns Skill Levels" sidebar on page 42 of Tactical Shooting, the Delta Assaulters' GUNS skill should cap at about 18.

So, say our Operator has Guns(SMG) at 18. Let's say he also has bought CBQ (SMGs) up to Guns +4, and has TA: Skull bought up to -3 from -7.

Assuming the "terrorists" are no further than 5 yards away (-2 to skill), the operator is performing a "Move and Attack" maneuver (which precludes the possibility of any Aim actions" and is firing ar ROF 2 (controlled pairs) with an MP5A3 at the skull of the terrorists (-3), you come out with a modified skill of 13. You'll need to roll 11 or less on 3d6 to have both shots hit the skull.

This means that a VERY skilled shooter (Guns 18 + techniques maxed) only has a 62% chance of making those shots. If you ask me 62% isn't going to be good enough to pass the Delta OTC. On the other hand, a skill level of 21, which would end up with a 90% chance to pull off those shots, seems absurdly high for a realistic game.

Is there something I'm missing? Is my math off. Or is this skill level something that GURPS simply cannot represent without superhuman levels of Guns skill?

TS is a bit unclear on those skill level. It says "up to" but it also says "typical level".

Remember Delta force is very high up the chain when it comes to recruitment. They get their people from US Army Special Forces. Special Forces recruits from experienced soldiers in the army. At each stage they get further training.

I would have no problem giving a Delta Force (or SAS or SAD or SEAL) skill 20 in something. Plus they have much more freedom to pick their own weapons and much higher budgets so Weapon Bond is likely. Modern soldiers at every skill level make heavy use of Reflex Sights and according to TS soldiers usually shoot using AoA(Determined).

[Dunadin777]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Assuming the "terrorists" are no further than 5 yards away (-2 to skill), the operator is performing a "Move and Attack" maneuver (which precludes the possibility of any Aim actions" and is firing ar ROF 2 (controlled pairs) with an MP5A3 at the skull of the terrorists (-3), you come out with a modified skill of 13. You'll need to roll 11 or less on 3d6 to have both shots hit the skull.

This means that a VERY skilled shooter (Guns 18 + techniques maxed) only has a 62% chance of making those shots. If you ask me 62% isn't going to be good enough to pass the Delta OTC. On the other hand, a skill level of 21, which would end up with a 90% chance to pull off those shots, seems absurdly high for a realistic game.

Is there something I'm missing? Is my math off. Or is this skill level something that GURPS simply cannot represent without superhuman levels of Guns skill?

You're forgetting about techniques--notably targeted attacks. Modern militaries' soldiers are drilled to shoot 'two in the chest, one in the head' or something similar. When they're going for special forces, those Targeted Attacks should be bought up to maximum level, which would significantly increase the chance to hit. Also, if you assume that the Delta are aiming for the terrorists' heads, then the shots to the chest might be considered missing the skull by one for a torso hit.

[lachimba]

IDHMBWM, but it was training.... therefore they had a (+1 to 10) for a non combat situation.

given the 'realism' of the training. I would go for something like a +4

[lexington]

Originally Posted by lachimba

Training.... therefore they had a (+1 to 10) for a non combat situation.

given the 'realism' of the training. I would go for something like a +4

I wouldn't give them more than +2 total, due to not having to worry about their own safety. Peoples lives were on the line if they messed up in that scenario. Definitely not a "no stress" environment.

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by lexington

I wouldn't give them more than +2 total, due to not having to worry about their own safety. Peoples lives were on the line if they messed up in that scenario. Definitely not a "no stress" environment.

Sure. It doesn't really matter to me though it is one of those examples where you just pick the best way and I think you can't really be wrong.

If it happens ok in real life then either their skills are higher or you give them a bonus (however you arrive at it, TDM, complimentary skills etc, luck etc).

[lexington]

Originally Posted by lachimba

Sure. It doesn't really matter to me though it is one of those examples where you just pick the best way and I think you can't really be wrong.

If it happens ok in real life then either their skills are higher or you give them a bonus (however you arrive at it, TDM, complimentary skills etc, luck etc).

I didn't think of Luck. IIRC, Luck is considered a pseudo-realistic trait.

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by lexington

I didn't think of Luck. IIRC, Luck is considered a pseudo-realistic trait.

IIRC It is a recommended trait in TS though.

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

So, say our Operator has Guns(SMG) at 18. Let's say he also has bought CBQ (SMGs) up to Guns +4, and has TA: Skull bought up to -3 from -7.

I think Vitals, Neck or Face are more likely targets, so change that -3 to -2 or -1. CQB is rather irrelevant, since All Out Attack gives plenty of movement to get across a room in a few seconds (the evet probably took more than three seconds - that estimate was given by somone who had just been stunned by a flashbang and might well be exagerrating anyway).

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Assuming the "terrorists" are no further than 5 yards away (-2 to skill), the operator is performing a "Move and Attack" maneuver (which precludes the possibility of any Aim actions"...

I'd say a more likely tactic would be using all-out-attacks to move a couple of yards a turn, then attacking targets at very close range (two or three yards). If you are moving across the room ayway, you might as well pick the targets which are close to your route.

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Bob [Delta Cadre] was just to the left of the door and Bill [Delta Cadre] was just to the right.

These guys didn't move very far. They could well have used Aim for some of their shots.

A laser or reflex sight is good for another +1 to skill and I can believe that a Delta force firearms instructor might possibly have a Weapon Bond with their favourite gun, so we could be looking at another +1 or +2 for gear.

So, I think that it seems fairly plausible to add at least +3 to effective skill beyond your estimates.

Although I'd like better than 90% odds of hitting each target under those circumstances.

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by lexington

TS is a bit unclear on those skill level. It says "up to" but it also says "typical level".

So is the consensus of the GURPS community that a Tier 1 unit like Delta might see the AVERAGE assaulter Guns skill in the neighborhood of 20+?

Remember Delta force is very high up the chain when it comes to recruitment. They get their people from US Army Special Forces. Special Forces recruits from experienced soldiers in the army. At each stage they get further training.

Not exactly true. Delta recruits from all over the Army, not just from the Special Forces community. Many Delta Operators came from the Ranger regiments, or from high-speed units like the 101st or 82nd Airborne Division.

I would have no problem giving a Delta Force (or SAS or SAD or SEAL) skill 20 in something. Plus they have much more freedom to pick their own weapons and much higher budgets so Weapon Bond is likely. Modern soldiers at every skill level make heavy use of Reflex Sights and according to TS soldiers usually shoot using AoA(Determined).

I agree that modern Delta Operators would probably be using a CCO for room clearing, but in the specific example in the book, the Delta Cadre (and Haney's OTC students, eventually) were able to do the work with MP5s with iron sights. An EOTech or AimPoint would certainly make the job easier, but the point is that these guys could do it in 1979 without a reflex sight. Also, performing a move and attack means you are not doing an AoA, at least from my understanding of GURPS rules and Tactical Shooting.