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Old 12-30-2009, 05:24 PM   #51
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

I like to fully stat out important NPCs (including point values) to at least get an idea of how powerful they are, in comparison to the PCs.

I know, I know: GURPS point values aren't the same as D&D "Levels" or Challenge Ratings or the like, but it does help to know that if my Combat Monster NPC comes to 200 points, he's about equal to the 200-point Combat Monster PC(s).

Point values are a reasonable reference for relative power levels, given apples-to-apples comparisons ... and even for ballpark comparisons, inasmuch as that most 200-point characters (built on the same starting assumptions, i.e. what traits are available) are roughly equivalent in "overall" power level, even if their focus is different.
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:28 PM   #52
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
That brings up a funny story. Black Ops campaign, with a Combat Ops sneaking through the inevitable ductwork from A to B.

The Op drops into a room, only to surprise a worker, who I arbitrarily decide, for fun, has Judo-12. No other stats were created; it was a "just wing it" moment.

Well, Mr. Judo proceeded to make the most amazing series of rolls to parry and grapple with a 700+ point character very successfully. This guy was going against the Combat Op version of one of the Gracies, and was holding his own.

It made for a fun, nice, "I can't believe this..." moment that was great color for the episode. But the only stats it required was something like ST10, DX10, Judo-12.

In our campaigns we call that a warrior type x trying to become a name character. Quite a few times after someone puts up an exceptionally good fight etc.the players want to know their name etc and I wing it and write it down as I go. Then they are thrilled when he/she shows up again ( they have a history)
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:30 PM   #53
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by jeff_wilson View Post
This doesn't mean that you can't give a meaningful quantitative answer, only that there are several. These different answers can still be objectively useful if they are based on commonly known benchmarks, of which GURPS is gradually re-accumulating after the new edition and more recent changes of direction. I've mentioned this sort of thing before, mostly in regard to the Invulnerability issue.
The lower level of Qualitative and Meaningful would of course be the default(where applicable), but whats the upper level? Once we know that, we can fill in with integers inbetween, but we cannot know the upper level without knowing the campaign.

I wasnt here for the 3e benchmarks, nor do I even presume to understand how those would work or how to reacquire them. At what point are the pistol skills of Indiana Jones, Dirty Harry, Han Solo, a Bootcamp fresh soldier, or the Lone Ranger even on a cross campaign/cross genre scale?

Im not familiar with your issues with Invulnerability issue. Can you post a link to the thread?

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Old 12-30-2009, 05:31 PM   #54
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
So, in all seriousness, getting people to not overstat is one of the ways which we can keep our hobby alive and prospering.

Someone who spends hours upon hours statting up stuff is playing a game, but it's a lonely statting game, not the social roleplaying game which involves multiple people that most of us are playing.
Statting up a bunch of NPCs can give you much better insight in how to do the odd things the game lets you do. In fact, I always say to learn a game better make a few characters. I don't think we're talking about the guy who comes in and sets up a thought experiment on the forums though... just to see how everyone else would do that special power.

There's also the important concept of making a call on your own to make the game your own. Don't come running to the forums every time you don't understand something. Try to figure it out first and then make the call for your own games and world. No one will disapprove and look down on you if you do. Well, no one who deserves your respect, anyway.
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:41 PM   #55
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by CousinX View Post
...I know, I know: GURPS point values aren't the same as D&D "Levels" or Challenge Ratings or the like, but it does help to know that if my Combat Monster NPC comes to 200 points, he's about equal to the 200-point Combat Monster PC(s).

Point values are a reasonable reference for relative power levels, given apples-to-apples comparisons ... and even for ballpark comparisons, inasmuch as that most 200-point characters (built on the same starting assumptions, i.e. what traits are available) are roughly equivalent in "overall" power level, even if their focus is different.
If most of the PCs are using combat builds then using NPCs with combat builds helps maitain consistency, but only in a vague and loose sense that will be trampled soon after points are acquired.

At 100 points its not too tough, but once the PCs have 20 more poitns to spend, where do those points go and what skills/abilities do they acquire? The NPCs most certainly will not spend the points the same way and it wont take long before the figter that spread his points between swor, shield, knife, brawling and Axe/Mace is outclassed or evenly matched to an NPC mook that has a lower point value, but a more concentrated focus.

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Old 12-30-2009, 06:01 PM   #56
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by jeff_wilson View Post
"There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC" - I'm seeing this opinion (with which I do not agree) expressed more frequently than previous here, and I would like to see if users can post informed reasons for having it when there are several rules like the long-established Allies and Enemies that require the opposite behavior.
I don't think that it there is no point in statting NPCs. On the other hand, I do think that the other extreme where everything in the game world needs to be statted with a full character sheet results in never actually gaming. Often posters seem to think that GURPS requires impossible amounts of prep time or worse claim that it is impossible to improvise.

I'll stat NPCs, sometimes but more often than not I'll just jot down some quick notes for consistency. Enemies, allies and dependents always get full write-ups. I'll often improvise an NPC while gaming and then flesh it out with a full sheet between sessions; if it turns out to be significant.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 12-30-2009 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 12-30-2009, 06:08 PM   #57
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
, you cannot underestimate how many GMs we lose to the hobby due to their being overwhelmed by unnecessary minutiae and wasting time on overstatting instead of actually getting ready to run a game.

People tend to get caught up in overstatting and call off game sessions, campaigns, even call off the whole hobby, and we lose another GM/game because they feel themselves unprepared to run due to lack of statted "things".

So, in all seriousness, getting people to not overstat is one of the ways which we can keep our hobby alive and prospering.

Someone who spends hours upon hours statting up stuff is playing a game, but it's a lonely statting game, not the social roleplaying game which involves multiple people that most of us are playing.

On the flip side, people who understat run the risk of turning a dice-based game with objective values into a storytelling game where all values depend only on the judgement calls of the GM.

There really is a discipline called mathematical modeling. Using numbers and probabilities to describe a system is not something that Gary Gygax invented; it's not even something that the Prussian military training officers invented.

The thing that drives me crazy about gamers is that many of them seem to think that less simulationist crunch is better for their game, and therefore everyone should play non-crunchy games.
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Old 12-30-2009, 06:22 PM   #58
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by riprock View Post
On the flip side, people who understat run the risk of turning a dice-based game with objective values into a storytelling game where all values depend only on the judgement calls of the GM.
The stats of anything can be set to whatever value the GM wants; even if stating it up using a point-buy system the GM has an unlimited point budget. So, ultimately, all values do depend only on GM judgment calls. What matters is whether or not the GMs judgment is fair and fun for the players, not if he used his judgment to stat everything in minute detail ahead of time or whether he used the most basic stats on the fly.
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Old 12-30-2009, 06:25 PM   #59
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by CousinX View Post
I know, I know: GURPS point values aren't the same as D&D "Levels" or Challenge Ratings or the like, but it does help to know that if my Combat Monster NPC comes to 200 points, he's about equal to the 200-point Combat Monster PC(s).
But that's just it.

He's not about equal in combat power, in challenge rating or in any other useful formula that you can use to gauge relative power. He has spent an equal number of 'I want that trait' points and that's all the two have in common.

A martial artist with insanely high ST and DX as well as Karate at DX+10 and Judo at DX+10 as well as six other martial art skills at DX+8 (that's well over 200 points) will not be equal in any way, shape or form to a 0-point soldier who has Guns -12, Tactics -10 and Stealth -10 and is waiting with a rifle aimed at a doorway he's coming through.

Points loosely measure adventuring utility, but mostly, they act as a limit on how many cool powers players can buy. They don't really impact tactical situations in the game all that much, since being issued equipment and holding an advantageous position is not even worth any points. And that has a much greater bearing on the result.
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Old 12-30-2009, 06:29 PM   #60
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Default Re: Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

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Originally Posted by riprock View Post
On the flip side, people who understat run the risk of turning a dice-based game with objective values into a storytelling game where all values depend only on the judgement calls of the GM.
You consider it a risk, I consider it a reward ;)

Quote:
The thing that drives me crazy about gamers is that many of them seem to think that less simulationist crunch is better for their game, and therefore everyone should play non-crunchy games.
If that was the case I'd be playing Fudge instead of GURPS :)
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