Things to Avoid In Set Construction

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

One of my bugbears (and not the 3HD type) is when setting creators spawn the traditional fantasy henotheism by trying to create a polytheistic culture based on their own experience of monotheism (or at least monolatry) ... it is (at least in my experience) highly dissonant to have congregations worshipping only one deity from a pantheon and thus having religious experience limited to a very narrow portfolio.

That bothers me a lot too. People who have only been exposed to monotheism tends to get polytheism very, very wrong, in several ways.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

One can do the same with religions. Instead of inventing shallow fictional copies of real-world religions such as Christianity and Norse polytheism, use the real ones, to benefit from their depth, richness and diversity.

Generally, when people do that, the result is generally offensive, not "deep" nor "rich". In fact, the typical portrayals of the Catholic church are DEEPLY offensive to me. Portrayals of the more passionate sects usually cas them in such an ill light as to be civilly actionable as slander.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Personally I can only stomach that if you are actually using Norsemen. Either you've set your game in historical Europe plus fantasy elements or you've abducted a bunch of Norsemen to live in your fantasy world and you still need to account for the religion of the natives.

Even then, I've never once seen an RPG setting who went that route and actually used anything more than a shallow fictionalization of a real religion. I've seen more depth from the "shallow fictional copies" than the "real" ones.

I have - the results are WORSE than the shallow fictionalizations.

GURPS Fantasy 1E was about the best of that school... and it managed to offend almost everyone I gamed with.

I much prefer the veneer fictionalizations. In part, because they axiomatically cannot be wrong, and in part because, even if I as a GM get it wrong, it isn't a direct assault on the real religion.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

Generally, when people do that, the result is generally offensive, not "deep" nor "rich". In fact, the typical portrayals of the Catholic church are DEEPLY offensive to me. Portrayals of the more passionate sects usually cas them in such an ill light as to be civilly actionable as slander.



I have - the results are WORSE than the shallow fictionalizations.

GURPS Fantasy 1E was about the best of that school... and it managed to offend almost everyone I gamed with.

I much prefer the veneer fictionalizations. In part, because they axiomatically cannot be wrong, and in part because, even if I as a GM get it wrong, it isn't a direct assault on the real religion.

Well you can avoid offence by using real dead religions. But I still haven't seen a Greco-Roman setting that included things like Cybele, the non-virgin variant of Artemis, Zeus Melichios, the Eleusinian mysteries and what have you.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

Similarly, the letters "e" and "i" don't need to be replaced with "y" in every name, nor "s" with "z" or "u" with "w".

Also, vowels don't need to be doubled up ("Aayla" instead of "Ayla" for a name), and apostrophes should be placed to make sense ("Allira'el" might be acceptable, showing a break in sound between the 'a' and the 'e', but "J'ak'e" should just be shot.)

Altering the arrangement of letters ("Jaek" instead of "Jake") might be fine, but don't abuse it.

J'ak'e would obviously be pronounced 'Jeh-ahk-ay', not 'Jake'. An apostrophe indicates a separation of syllables in my mind, or possibly a language-specific other sound like a click.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Langy

J'ak'e would obviously be pronounced 'Jeh-ahk-ay', not 'Jake'. An apostrophe indicates a separation of syllables in my mind, or possibly a language-specific other sound like a click.

There are all sorts of uses. And names in fantasy/SF fiction tend to not be of English origin, so it's pretty natural to find all sorts of apostrophes there. Particularly given that fictional languages might find even more unexpected uses for the symbol than the ones in the article linked.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

That bothers me a lot too. People who have only been exposed to monotheism tends to get polytheism very, very wrong, in several ways.

The idea of getting a religion 'wrong' simply boggles my mind and I do not see a way that can possibly happen.

These people believe this because this is what these people believe. Buttoned up nicely in circular logic. DOne. How does one get that wrong?

Now Ill grant you that RPG manufactured polytheistic religions may not come close to mirroring the polytheistic religions of Earths history (or present), but wrong? As much as that description wobbles my logic in regards to anything in an RPG, its does so doubly for a religion in an RPG.

Nymdok

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

The idea of getting a religion 'wrong' simply boggles my mind and I do not see a way that can possibly happen.

These people believe this because this is what these people believe. Buttoned up nicely in circular logic. DOne. How does one get that wrong?

Now Ill grant you that RPG manufactured polytheistic religions may not come close to mirroring the polytheistic religions of Earths history (or present), but wrong? As much as that description wobbles my logic in regards to anything in an RPG, its does so doubly for a religion in an RPG.

Nymdok

Generally a fictional religion will look "wrong" if it doesn't behave in a coherent manner or otherwise breaks kayfabe. A common problem will be leaving whole aspects of (human) experience unacknowledged or being blatantly at odds with the settings actual metaphysics.
Especially in a fantasy setting where divine intervention tends to be blatant.
Monotheism will simply not run in a setting with multiple demonstrable deities. Monolatry and henotheism are entirely likely, but would then demand that the deities in question address all aspects of life rather than claiming a narrow portfolio like they would in a polytheistic religion.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

That bothers me a lot too. People who have only been exposed to monotheism tends to get polytheism very, very wrong, in several ways.

I tend to agree, but I'd appreciate if you would share some of the common mistakes you've noticed.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

The idea of getting a religion 'wrong' simply boggles my mind and I do not see a way that can possibly happen.

These people believe this because this is what these people believe. Buttoned up nicely in circular logic. DOne. How does one get that wrong?

Now Ill grant you that RPG manufactured polytheistic religions may not come close to mirroring the polytheistic religions of Earths history (or present), but wrong? As much as that description wobbles my logic in regards to anything in an RPG, its does so doubly for a religion in an RPG.

Nymdok

NB: cult her is used in the technical sense of a group of worshipers with a stable praxis, not the common meaning involving brainwashing.

The typical RPG treatment has polytheists simply being dedicated to one particular god. Most real polytheistic religions had people who worshipped multiple gods.

All too often, the fantasy presentation is comparable to modern protestant christianity... 20+ different sects of the same faith differing in detail, which members of one don't belong to nor worship with the other 19+ sects, but all of whom will reject a different core faith (sometimes violently).

The alternate approach is the "great big shoppy store" approach. No cults require devotions except when some service is needed, no priests for specific cults. Find a temple and find the whole pantheon represented.

The gaming presentation is often even less nuanced than the general fantasy approach.

The reality is that many places had a dominant cult, which almost everyone was participatory in the rites of to some level, and then 2-3 additional cults which covered specific chunks of the year cycle, which most people participated in the large feasts of... and then a bunch of smaller ones, which only some were into. and some of these cults had multiple gods, while others were singular gods.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

NB: cult her is used in the technical sense of a group of worshipers with a stable praxis, not the common meaning involving brainwashing.

The typical RPG treatment has polytheists simply being dedicated to one particular god. Most real polytheistic religions had people who worshipped multiple gods.

Since most surviving polytheistic religions have most people taking most or all their problems to their favorite deity, this is actually a better model than it might first appear. Yeah OK, most people will toss an occasional offering to a few other gods, or might take a special life stage ritual or traditional kind of problem to a god that specialized in that one - I understand a lot of the popularity of Christian wedding themes in Japan is Jesus is considered a sort of specialist in marriages for love as opposed to more sensible traditional reasons - and attending two different temples regularly doesn't necessarily brand you as a weirdo, but people shop around less than you might think even when there are lots of options.

The collection of gods with not much overlapping special portfolios we have for the Greco-Roman or Norse polytheisms which inspires a lot of frp religions is more a product of the imagination of late syncratizers who didn't much believe in any of the gods, trying to make something coherent out of conflicting stories from a bunch of regional variations than of anything real.

The reality is that many places had

The reality is mostly polytheisms are messy, and rules sets really don't like that at all.

If you have a complete list the gods, it's wrong. If you have a list of which temples are dedicated to which gods, it's probably wrong too. If you know which god is in charge of the weather, you're reading one of those late syncretizers. If you stick to the huge temples in the city centers and the gods that have major public festivals in one or more of them, maybe there's a chance it's right, though there are likely some gods on that list some of the other cities will insist have an entirely different name or aren't even real. But if you are going to build a history for setting in which the gods are active, or even a set of templates for their empowered clerics, you really need those lists and spheres of power, no matter how unrealistic they are historically.

In a lot of ways it's a close analog of why isn't RPG magic as "magical" as the stuff in stories. It's because when you write and RPG magic system it has to have *clearly written rules*.