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Old 06-21-2013, 05:09 PM   #61
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
No, when grappled, changing posture is something that you have to win a roll to do, in a new broader version of Takedown called Force Posture Change.

Technical Grappling has the following to say about positions:

Impossible Positions
If you perform any action that changes your or your opponent’s
posture or position such that a grapple is no longer
physically possible – due to reach, facing, relative facing, or
orientation – then you and your foe must release your grip(s);
see p. 00.
I'm not actually clear on whether this means that someone being grapped can choose to drop prone and, in the process, break free, or that they cannot choose to drop prone at all without taking down the other party.

(Which, in the situation being discussed, would probably require grappling them first! The grapple here is one-sided.)
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:55 PM   #62
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I'm not actually clear on whether this means that someone being grapped can choose to drop prone and, in the process, break free, or that they cannot choose to drop prone at all without taking down the other party.

(Which, in the situation being discussed, would probably require grappling them first! The grapple here is one-sided.)
He may not choose to drop prone and break the grapple for free. He may try and drop prone, which involves a contest similar to that of a takedown. If he does succeed in dropping prone and his foe does not drop with him, the grapple will break unless his foe has unusual anatomy.

And there won't be such thing as a one-sided grapple anymore, much like Ken Clary's old article, all grapples are mutual (though the penalties inflicted are not).
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Old 06-22-2013, 04:58 AM   #63
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
And there won't be such thing as a one-sided grapple anymore, much like Ken Clary's old article, all grapples are mutual (though the penalties inflicted are not).
Oh my. I suspect this will play . . . interestingly . . . with the way Deathtouch, Mêlée Attacks, and Mêlée Follow-Up (on unarmed), and Auras work.
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Old 06-22-2013, 09:15 AM   #64
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Oh my. I suspect this will play . . . interestingly . . . with the way Deathtouch, Mêlée Attacks, and Mêlée Follow-Up (on unarmed), and Auras work.
Eh? I won't further derail the thread (sorry for doing that in the first place), but touch is touch, and the mechanics of the above attacks are pretty straight-forward.
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Old 06-22-2013, 09:22 AM   #65
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Eh? I won't further derail the thread (sorry for doing that in the first place), but touch is touch, and the mechanics of the above attacks are pretty straight-forward.
Sorry, but a touch is not a touch is not a touch in GURPS, but I'll leave it at that. This is indeed even further off-topic. For silencers.
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Old 06-22-2013, 11:04 AM   #66
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
For that matter, realistically, you never know that they've bled to death. You hold on at least 30 seconds and up to 2 minutes so that you can be reasonably certain that the sentry is securely unconscious at the very least.
Realistically, people drop, fully unconscious, due to any loss of blood pressure to the brain.

A typical blood choke knocks someone completely out in 3-6 seconds, depending on how well it's applied.

A throat slash which severs wind pipe and carotid arteries will drop any sentry unconscious in under a second, and the wind pipe slash makes them unable to speak while they bleed out unconsciously.

A thrust to the base of the brain through the spine, paralyses and drops the sentry unconscious, while he bleeds out.


The sentry suffers Total Surprise and in most cases gets an AoA Double by the attacker who grapples and attacks on the same turn.
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Old 06-22-2013, 01:59 PM   #67
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
Realistically, people drop, fully unconscious, due to any loss of blood pressure to the brain.

A typical blood choke knocks someone completely out in 3-6 seconds, depending on how well it's applied.

A throat slash which severs wind pipe and carotid arteries will drop any sentry unconscious in under a second, and the wind pipe slash makes them unable to speak while they bleed out unconsciously.
Ideally, yes. Practically speaking, the process might take longer and it's best to retain a grapple for more than a second.

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A thrust to the base of the brain through the spine, paralyses and drops the sentry unconscious, while he bleeds out.
If perfectly executed, it would. On the other hand, most literature on the subject discourages the practice, due to the difficulty involved. The few soldiers I've met who talk about their sentry removal training consider the method so difficult as to be more suitable for movies than reality.

As far as I know, it's not taught as part of standard doctrine in any Western military. Of course, the individual gung-ho instructor might differ, but in general, the precision and strength required is just not practical for normal people.

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The sentry suffers Total Surprise and in most cases gets an AoA Double by the attacker who grapples and attacks on the same turn.
Yes. And after the initial stab, moving the knife around is another All-Out Attack (Double).

After that, however, the attacker will retain a grapple that reduces the amount of noise the sentry can make as he waits for unconsciousness to result and until he is certain that the sentry is truly out. Then he can lower him down to the ground.
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Old 06-22-2013, 02:03 PM   #68
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
Realistically, people drop, fully unconscious, due to any loss of blood pressure to the brain.

A typical blood choke knocks someone completely out in 3-6 seconds, depending on how well it's applied.

A throat slash which severs wind pipe and carotid arteries will drop any sentry unconscious in under a second, and the wind pipe slash makes them unable to speak while they bleed out unconsciously.
Both of those times are on the short end of estimates. I typically see estimates of 10-15 seconds as the low end of reliable unconsciousness from cutting off blood to the brain unless you do something really dire, and even decapitation may involve multiple seconds (evidence on this is pretty poor, however).
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Old 06-22-2013, 07:14 PM   #69
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Both of those times are on the short end of estimates. I typically see estimates of 10-15 seconds as the low end of reliable unconsciousness from cutting off blood to the brain unless you do something really dire, and even decapitation may involve multiple seconds (evidence on this is pretty poor, however).
For safety reasons we stop the choke at the 6 second mark, I've choked out dozens of people, many of them incredibly much stronger than me, in that 3-6 sec time frame.

I've also personally seen people do the two finger tap choke, I can't do it myself, but it drops someone either with a single or a simultaneous double tap to the carotid, that's unconsciousness in under a second, though most people start to regain consciousness even before they hit the ground.

Anecdotally, the stronger they are, and the thicker their necks, the easier it is to choke someone out, not just because the thicker neck makes it easier to apply the choke, but it's also easier to do when you're not worrying you'll break their neck accidentally.
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Old 06-24-2013, 06:13 AM   #70
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
...

And there won't be such thing as a one-sided grapple anymore, much like Ken Clary's old article, all grapples are mutual (though the penalties inflicted are not).
Slight tangent, how will surprise be effected, i assume 'do nothing' will mean you're not grappling back?

I currently I do it like this, PC sneaks up on sentry preferable after a couple of secs evaluate all out attacks determined & telegraphed with a one handed face grapple (which I rule stops a reflexive shout if surprise is in effect), follows with a AoA determined & telegraphed base of the skull* knife thrust while grappling the face.

Continue to wiggle the blade for a bit, but at the point any noises the sentry makes will be strictly involuntary as voluntary will no longer be an applicable term for him.


*Which I just treat as a skull hit, but I quite like the -9 no DR suggested earlier for a true pithing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
...
As far as I know, it's not taught as part of standard doctrine in any Western military. Of course, the individual gung-ho instructor might differ, but in general, the precision and strength required is just not practical for normal people.
.
I'd have thought that was more to do with the fact that its probably not going to come up very often in normal combat operations, rather than its difficulty. Not that I'm saying sentry removal is easy though. Far from it, it seems to be based on several things going right, and any one of them going wrong will screw it all up. A scenario most combat training trys to avoid, preferring redundancy in tactics.
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