06-21-2013, 07:35 AM | #51 | |||
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
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(A few seconds should probably be, say, 1d seconds, or something else, but defined. And incapacitation means you won't have occasion to fail again, because you don't make rolls to pass out if you Do Nothing.) Quote:
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06-21-2013, 08:07 AM | #52 | ||
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
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What I would probably do is state that any Attack/AoA action used simply to maintain a grapple would give a bonus (+2 or so, +4 may be more appropriate) toward said maintenance, in addition to any Dedicated/All Out bonus. Otherwise, once you've grappled an opponent, there is no incentive to not continue attacking (say, with your knees), despite the fact that in reality it's easier to maintain a grapple if you do nothing else. I can't remember what the penalty to using one hand for grappling is, but I'll assume it's -2 (I think it's more). That means if you opt to hold your opponent with one hand while stabbing, you're at -2 to maintain the grapple. If you opt to go All Out (Double), you're at +0. By contrast, the guy using the "bleed out" strategy is holding with both hands and using an Attack action to maintain the grapple, for +2. If he opts to go All Out (Committed), he's at +6 - so your "grab and stab-stab-stab-stab" guy is at -4 or -6 to maintain the grapple compared to the "bleed out" guy - although he certainly needs to hold on for longer than his less-patient comrade. Honestly, when it comes to sentry removal, a garrote or Choke Hold seems more the way to go than a knife. I've heard the Choke Hold route is the preferred method for today's armed forces (although this may be incorrect) - it's probably quieter, and I'm almost certain it's less disturbing than all that blood. |
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06-21-2013, 12:16 PM | #53 | |||||||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
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And if someone is willing to go prone, the grappler has a choice between letting go, following him down or keeping him upright using a multiple of BL. Quote:
Meaning that any normal human will have trouble holding a heavy, potentially resisting human up with one arm while making a series of Attacks with the other. Which is why it's better to make the attacks before he knows you're there and switch to holding him up after you've thrust your knife into the side of his neck and cut forward, a total of 2-3 attacks in GURPS terms. Quote:
Remember, the rules don't say that death comes silently, so even doing 60+ HP of damage is no guarantee that the last turn of life for the sentry won't be loud. Quote:
Even if he has Combat Reflexes, this happens before he can try to break free, shout, drop or fire his weapon. Obviously, this only works if you successfully sneak up to him, but that's pretty much a given. If the sentry detects you as you move into position, it's probably not going to work and your backup will have to shoot him. Which is marginally less catastrophic if your backup has a suppressed firearm; actually making this post on topic! Quote:
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I agree it's more realistic to have a rule for arterial bleeding, but it's not needed to model the fact that characters need to wait after they stab the sentry in order to be certain that they are truly incapable of making noise. Since you were restraining him as he lost consciousness and prevented him from crying out, his death was as silent as you could make it. Killing him harder, with more HPs of damage, wouldn't accomplish that.
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06-21-2013, 12:57 PM | #54 | |||||||||
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
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You're doing considerably more than that, though. You're inserting an unspecified duration after the rules indicate death or unconsciousness in which the character can still take circumscribed action, which I cannot interact with via rules because it has no rules. And which, frankly, appears to manifest or vanish depending on whose strategy it would inconvenience. Quote:
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Physically stunned people can't avoid dropping prone and dropping their weapon. If you stab a guy in the neck (especially if your stab counts as three separate major wounds) before you're prepared to hold him up, something unfortunate is very likely to happen. Quote:
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And even without that, you've got a certain number of seconds of active grappling before the resistance stops, right? Which is the dangerous part. (Well, after the sneaking up part and not botching the initial strike, at least.) Hugging the probably-dead body for a bit to be on the safe side is inconvenient but unlikely to go awry unless somebody shows up in that window. More stabbing can shorten the active phase pretty significantly, by forcing more and harder checks.
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06-21-2013, 02:04 PM | #55 |
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
Is merely slowing down the fall with one hand (and one's body on the other side) totally unsupported by the system or something, because there is no rule for it?
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06-21-2013, 03:05 PM | #56 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
The discussion about sentry removal with knives probably belongs in another thread. I keep thinking there is something new about suppressors in this thread, but nope.
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06-21-2013, 03:20 PM | #57 | |||||||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
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If you don't tell the player when the sentry is unconscious, it becomes much more important to keep a grapple that prevents crying out from the probable end of mental stun until it has become fairly obvious that the sentry is not Acting, Doing Nothing or physically stunned, he is well and truly dead (or unconscious or in a coma, which is the same for the purposes of the PC in this case). Quote:
Check Technical Grappling once it comes out for specifics, but there are rules that say that you need to be able to carry the weight of a foe to grapple him while walking or standing if he's not standing. Quote:
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I admit that in allowing the classic pose of one hand grappling the face and another holding the knife in place to count as the second hand in a grapple, I'm interpreting real world events to the closest GURPS equivalent, but I think it's reasonable to say that after the stab and cut, the move toward a stationary hold is best modelled by a free action to hold the body upwards, thus allowing BLx8 in the place of BLx2 at the cost of having the knife Unready (through being stuck). And in the next turn, the character doing the sentry removal uses his grappling skill to add a hand to the grapple, i.e. position his knife better in order to hold on while the sentry loses consciousness. Quote:
The thing to do is to be certain that he's lost consciousness, is dying and that a fair number of seconds have elapsed since he entered his fatal coma. At that point, only a very mean GM (or Mr. Murphy in real life) would rule that he utters any significant sound as you gently lower him to the ground. Quote:
It's true that more stabbing might get you to autokill territory, but that's a failure of GURPS rules to model reality, because in reality, wounds are not additive like that. And, even in the RAW, once the mental stun passes, it's pretty dangerous not to have both hands for the grapple, so it's a pretty big gamble to try for further stabbing after those first two seconds. If the sentry makes the initial HT checks, he only needs to break free from a one-handed grapple in order to be able to scream or fire his weapon. Which would be bad, even if he then obligingly died in the next turn or the turn after that.
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06-21-2013, 03:22 PM | #58 |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
I did make a point about mentioning a realistic tactical role for non-cinematic suppressors, in that a character doing sentry removal will need backup with a firearm if he is detected on his approach. And in that case, a suppressed firearm is the lesser of evils.
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06-21-2013, 04:20 PM | #59 | |||||||||
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
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The period of time it takes to be reasonably sure someone has failed an unconsciousness check is either very short (nowhere close to 30 seconds) or basically infinite depending on whether you think they're quick enough to start playing dead. Your arterial bleeding rules would make 30 seconds useful. If you allow effective Diagnosis rolls on someone while grappling them from behind in the dark, while not allowing any opportunity for them to make any move while you do it, that could possibly give you something to do with the time... Quote:
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The point is not to inflict so much damage that the damage precludes a scream. The point is to inflict so much damage that the subject is dead. The final scream, along with any preceding screams, is muffled exactly the same way as in the model you favor. (Mental stun definitely does not preclude screaming when someone shoves a knife into you.) Quote:
It's certainly true that only grappling with one hand makes the break free checks easier. On the other hand, stabbing repeatedly means that those checks will be penalized -4 for shock. I don't remember how big the one-handed penalty to keeping hold is but that's going to make up for a bit...and there may be rather fewer checks.
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06-21-2013, 05:06 PM | #60 |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
No, when grappled, changing posture is something that you have to win a roll to do, in a new broader version of Takedown called Force Posture Change.
Technical Grappling has the following to say about positions: Impossible Positions If you perform any action that changes your or your opponent’s posture or position such that a grapple is no longer physically possible – due to reach, facing, relative facing, or orientation – then you and your foe must release your grip(s); see p. 00.
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