[Basic] Catfall, Very Fit and Peripheral Vision Cost

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by thalcos

Maybe I've been playing this wrong, but doesn't Peripheral Vision give you an active defense (i.e. Dodge) against missile weapons / gunfire unless the attack is coming from exactly behind you, because you can see the attacker and are therefore aware of the attack?

The rules on how it interacts with ranged attacks are a bit vague (the melee rules are clear), but it increases your field of view from 180 to 240 degrees, so if field of view determines ability to use active defenses (which it doesn't for melee attacks) it might help one time in three.

[AlexanderHowl]

From 180 degrees to 300 degrees (you have three front hexes, two side hexes, and one rear hex). You are also capable of defending against attacks from your side hexes at no penalty and against attacks from your rear hex at -2 (meaning that you can dodge someone shooting you in the back, unlike anyone with a normal field of vision).

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

From 180 degrees to 300 degrees (you have three front hexes, two side hexes, and one rear hex).

That's the rule for defending in melee, which is not well correlated with the rules for peripheral vision for purposes of vision and ranged combat. If you check B24, normal arc of vision is 180 degrees (120 degrees, +30 degrees on each side from turning your head), and peripheral vision increases that to 240 degrees (180 degrees, +30 degrees on each side from turning your head).

[kirbwarrior]

I'm surprised about Very Fit. In my experience it's like Luck; Underpriced but both GM and Player are grateful for it. Very Fit is incredible for HT10 characters and if you aren't planning on getting HT-based skills it usually seems better than buying HT12. It's especially relevant when traveling, someone with Very Fit will likely show up to any encounter (planned or otherwise) with full FP. Mind, once you hit HT14 or 16 it's generally less useful (but it gets a nice boost at 20 because you suddenly get x4 recovery on FP).

Catfall I've seen do a lot of work. It's great for characters that don't have good or even average DX for being able to go down easily. I think it's actually best for characters who won't have Acrobatics and because of that, I could see adding an Acrobatics boost to make up for it (+2 seems good because that'll keep it relevant for people who focus on that skill).

As for Peripheral Vision, I've never personally taken it only because most character concepts go for 360 Vision (it has nothing to do with cost especially with Powers' enhancements). But I know a few players really were glad to have it, it basically being 'Danger Sense' with different mechanics. Mind, I also use that +3 for further effects; security guards love it to keep an eye out against Stealth, it's useful for any version of Shadowing that's behind you (not just against you), etc. It also can be used offensively; Being able to aim at something while facing almost away from it is always handy.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Rupert

These arguments apply to almost any advantage that will save or protect someone from some kind of ill-fortune. If only one person has Danger Sense then sooner or later putting the party in situations where it's worthwhile will get the others who don't have it killed because they're surprised. The same applies to Combat Reflexes, for that matter, and the reason we don't generally worry about this is that combat is common and expected in a lot of games.

While I agree with the rest of the above post (which I did not bother quoting in its entirety), this seems inaccurate. With Danger Sense and Combat Reflexes, there are natural scenarios where one person being forewarned of danger or being able to more quickly react to danger can help the party. Providing the same thing with Catfall requires significantly more engineering. Or maybe I'm just not recognizing those situations?

Some examples of what I mean. With Combat Reflexes, besides the bonus to one's Active Defenses, you have a bonus to recover from being mentally stunned. In situations like an ambush, you entire side gets +1 to their rolls for initiative rolls to avoid a surprise attack. Similarly, while Danger Sense protects just you, it does so in a manner that can more easily prove useful to your allies. Dangers which would affect the entire group - and not just yourself - still trigger Danger Sense. In both cases, these traits aren't always a last seoncd thing, either.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by tbone

A lot of players seem to view Catfall as passive "in case I fall" protection from harm, but I think the key is to make active use of it. Lead pursuing foes to high places, then safely jump down and run away (or start shooting at the foes) as they slowly climb their way down. And use it to jump on foes from above. Even foes that aren't surprised will take a penalty to defense (and will take more damage than you do if you're simply slamming from above).

Also simply opens up more valid routes. Every window is a fire escape. Staircases are optional.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Some examples of what I mean. With Combat Reflexes, besides the bonus to one's Active Defenses, you have a bonus to recover from being mentally stunned. In situations like an ambush, you entire side gets +1 to their rolls for initiative rolls to avoid a surprise attack. Similarly, while Danger Sense protects just you, it does so in a manner that can more easily prove useful to your allies. Dangers which would affect the entire group - and not just yourself - still trigger Danger Sense. In both cases, these traits aren't always a last seoncd thing, either.

Generally this will be the case, yes. But sooner or later it won't be. For Combat Reflexes, well it protects the owner from total surprise, but not their friends. Danger Sense is a bit trickier, but unless the GM goes out of their way to not do it, sooner or later adding surprises (so Danger Sense is worth having) will result in one that the DS character does not or can not warn everyone else of.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Gs. Danger Sense is a bit trickier, but unless the GM goes out of their way to not do it, sooner or later adding surprises (so Danger Sense is worth having) will result in one that the DS character does not or can not warn everyone else of.

With my World of D'y'r't group most ambushes were prevented by conventional (and multiple) high Per scores but Danger Sense had the promary use of alerting the rogue to go into "Traps" mode. Danger you couldn't see of here usually meant traps somwhere. Which had to be found with Traps skill of couse since Danger Sense is seldom that precise.

[Sorenant]

Originally Posted by RyanW

Also simply opens up more valid routes. Every window is a fire escape. Staircases are optional.

Well, at least from the second or third floor depending on the height of each storey. Anything above that is increasingly more dangerous.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Generally this will be the case, yes. But sooner or later it won't be.

Irrelevant, given the full discussion. Maybe I've just gotten lost myself, so let me run back through it.

Rolando mistakenly posted that Catfall stacked with a successful Acobatics check in reducing effective fall distance.

CarrionPeacock corrected Rolando's error, and in the same post, put forth that the kinds of characters who should benefit from Catfall also are likely to have good DX scores and know Acrobatics. Which means Catfall is less valuable to them.

You, Rupert, then made an excellent post detailing the benefits of Catfall, as well as adding in some numbers to give us a better idea of how much it can really help.

CarrionPeacock furthered the discussion by pointing out how the numbers don't always work out that well. CarrionPeacock put it into perspective with some examples that come across as very natural situations for typical adventuring parties. CarrionPeacock also brought up some more alternatives to Catfall.

Back to you, Rupert. You made a counterargument, suggesting that what CarrionPeacock said would apply Combat Reflexes and Danger Sense. You then furthered the discussion by bringing up how Catfall really isn't priced well against the alternatives.

I, Otaku, mention I agree with most of your post, but not the bit about Combat Reflexes and Danger Sense. These traits not only naturally help the PC who has them, but it is more natural for them to benefit the entire party. Combat Reflexes flat out provides bonuses to your entire party under circumstances such as an Ambush. Danger Sense can - though certainly, not always - trigger early enough where the PC with it can warn others ahead of time.

So, again, the fact that one can find circumstances where Combat Reflexes and/or Danger Sense won't help the entire party does not disprove what I said. The question, ultimately, is if they are as niche as Catfall and the answer is no, they are not. Now, if you can explain to me how, in general, Catfall is going to be a benefit to the PC with it, with some spillover benefits for the rest of the party, and without it feeling too contrived. The infamous situation where the only reason a situation was presented where Catfall was relevant was because the GM needed to justify one player's decision to take Catfall. Especially if the GM has to contrive a way so that the situation only happens to the character with Catfall.

Originally Posted by Rupert

For Combat Reflexes, well it protects the owner from total surprise, but not their friends. Danger Sense is a bit trickier, but unless the GM goes out of their way to not do it, sooner or later adding surprises (so Danger Sense is worth having) will result in one that the DS character does not or can not warn everyone else of.

I already explained how having some circumstances where not everyone benefits is besides the point, but there seems to be more wrong with this last bit. That, or it is another example of me completely misunderstanding the situation and/or fixating on a minor detail. >.>

The rest is still puzzling me, however. Combat Reflexes has many benefits, and one of those does apply to everyone in the party in a pretty direct fashion, the bit about a +1 (+2 if the character with CR is leader) to initiative rolls from stuff like ambushes. It isn't huge, but it still is something and that something is far from unusual for your typical GURPS game.

Similarly, even with the benefits that just apply to the PC with CR, it is easier for someone to defeat their opponent and then help the rest of the party during the same combat than for the PC with Catfall to land first and catch any of the other PCs. Combining aspects of both, a leader with Combat Reflexes, when the entire party is surprised and mentally stunned, has a better chance of shaking it off and... well... being the leader the party needs. Helping those still stunned to shake it off, rallying those who are also ready, etc.

Danger Sense doesn't provide direct benefits to the rest of the group, but it is a bit like my last example with Combat Reflexes; a danger to the whole group includes the one with Danger Sense. Even just shouting a single word warning can help the entire group, and that assumes a super-strict interpretation of RAW, where Danger Sense only warns someone at the last possible second. That is, when walking into am ambush, instead of the PC with Danger Sense getting that warning tingle as soon as they walk into range of the ambush, it only goes off immediately before the ambush is sprung.