Steve Jackson Games Forums A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red
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 01-29-2019, 07:34 AM #81 ericthered Hero of Democracy     Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: far from the ocean Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red No AP recovered. Red steps back again (4 yards) and evaluates again raising the total evaluate to +2. 8 seconds until the pain returns. __________________ Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog
01-30-2019, 08:52 AM   #83
ericthered
Hero of Democracy

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Plane This is basically the situation where I think it'd be better to always use movement points (being 2x more economic to shuffle forward than shuffle backward) and maybe give people 20% of their MP for free (a step) per second, and charge 1 AP per each additional 20% (necessary for 2 MP stuff like sidestep or backward, or moving in non-standing postures) Something for the future, but for now I'll follow the Cole rules. I'm liking "Variant Move: Acceleration" because 1 AP per 20% MP sounds better than 1 AP per 20%. Especially since right above it on page 9 is "1 AP per additional step" and a step tends to be 20% of your move. Since it's based on a change in residual velocity it means I can speed up. Acceleration rules on the free step would also be interesting: you would pay 1 AP to start moving forward (stepping forward as part of maneuver, or doing a slip) or backward (retreating, or using step from maneuver to back up) but you must continue it for free, or else use 1 AP to slow down (1 per 33%)
I think steps are fundamentally different from other movement. They aren't made with the intent of giving your body momentum in a direction: its a minimized side effect. If you watch dancing or a sport, or try doing this sort of thing yourself you'll see that this sort of movement is core skill. The biggest difficulty is really making sure you don't trip over something.

So I flat-out disagree with the idea that stepping back costs extra movement point in general.

Quote:
 In the example on page 10 they charge 2 AP for 43% so the 'round normally' guideline could reduce costs, possibly to 0%, like for example someone with Move 11, moving 1 yard is less than 10% so you wouldn't round up to 1 AP (for 20%) but instead down to 0 AP (for 0%) I think?

I'm fine with charging by percent of move, but I'd always charge either the free step or the 1 AP for extra steps. Its an entirely different kind of movement.

I'm taking a "Move+Attack" maneuver, and I am increasing my velocity 4 points, from 1 to 5. 4 is 2/3 of Move 6, so this would normally cost me 3 AP to do (66 is closer to 60% than to 80%) but I believe that the -1 to DX and HT we both suffer results in -0.5 to basic speed (so our dodges, like our parries, should probably be 1 lower than listed?) so 4/5.5 is around 72%, closer to 80 so this costs me 4 AP.

Quote:
 THIS IS THE CHEAP VERSION because 80% AP would cost 8 AP if using the 1 AP/10% first option... who knew that moving 3 feet could be so much more exhausting than throwing a spinning roundhouse kick?

I agree that move is much higher than it should be in the last gasp. I'd be happy saying that for 2 AP you can move to full acceleration. Is it really all that different from an all out attack, effort wise? I can see a strong case for spending 3 AP to move at full speed and 2 AP for half, but spending 8 AP to move 4 yards is frankly ridiculous.

Quote:
 5 is enough to step 1 yard BEYOND you, so I am making an attempt to evade you by spending an additional AP. This total cost of 5 AP reduces my total from 12 to 7, but will necessitate you spending 1 AP as well to obstruct my evasion if you don't want me stepping into the hex in your rear. Do you want to do that, or just let me win and save the AP? B387 "Obstructions" doesn't actually list a movement point cost for "enemy in hex" like it does a +1 for "minor obstruction" (ally in way). It occurs to me that there might actually be a double-charging system in place here. If you pay 1 AP to do an evade AND THEN ALSO 1 AP per 10% or 20% of Movement Points, and then charge movement points to evade obstructions like allies/enemies, then you're basically charging 2 AP to evade when using MP (tactical combat) and 1 AP when not using it ("step" maneuvers)

charging the move AP and the evade AP for trying to move past someone doesn't sound like double counting to me, especially, when you think about the situations in which you can move for free. Evading is a fairly intense action. Think about basketball and people who try to move past their opponent's guard. Its a pretty intense action. I agree its painful when stacked on the move cost, but that's a problem with the move cost.

Quote:
 (the DX penalties when my adrenaline wears off, they would make sense to apply to "step rolls" if using my idea of making rolls every time someone stepped into a new hex, to give the possibility of tripping)

I think the dodge and move penalty that will show up cover that. Does adrenaline all run out at once, or do I have to wait 24 seconds past my second damaging kick to get the "over HP/3" effects?

I'll obstruct the evade, of course. As a note, if this ever worked, it would count as a run-around, not a pure attack in the back. The thread also presents the kernel of a truly awesome character.

I resist the evade by 1, 12 vs. 13. You have a -5 to your attempt because I'm standing up, and -1 from FP loss. Good luck!
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01-30-2019, 10:35 AM   #84
Plane

Join Date: Aug 2018
Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ericthered I think steps are fundamentally different from other movement. They aren't made with the intent of giving your body momentum in a direction: its a minimized side effect. If you watch dancing or a sport, or try doing this sort of thing yourself you'll see that this sort of movement is core skill. The biggest difficulty is really making sure you don't trip over something.
You mean like what holds for http://www.recordholders.org/en/list...s-running.html is a pattern in longterm movement but not for short-term? Side-shuffling and back-pedalling just feels awkward compared to a casual stroll forward, moreso than merely the aspect of not tripping, it's the different muscles used, unusual stabilization/lean/gait.

Maybe not so much as 2x, but should always be slightly more if able to quantify it. Like if you wanted to apply a basic cost of 2 MP mitigated by MoS, penalized by MoF, give forward movement a +10 and the other no bonus?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ericthered So I flat-out disagree with the idea that stepping back costs extra movement point in general.
In that case perhaps we should bump up forward movement to 2 MP as well, but then have improved sprinting rules where you can get better than 20% boost? It might throw off Enhanced Move value though...

Maybe something like forward movement costs 2 MP (just like side and back) the first second you begin moving that way, but if using "inheriting momentum from previous turn" rules, forward movement would be better at it (inherit 100%) than the others (inherit 25%)?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ericthered Does adrenaline all run out at once, or do I have to wait 24 seconds past my second damaging kick to get the "over HP/3" effects?
I assume it's on a per-injury basis, with a new countdown starting at each threshold. I guess if wanting to represent countdowns via some 'Adrenaline Points' system, there would need to be separate types for each threshold.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ericthered https://dicelog.com/joinlogdice I'll obstruct the evade, of course. As a note, if this ever worked, it would count as a run-around, not a pure attack in the back. The thread also presents the kernel of a truly awesome character. I resist the evade by 1, 12 vs. 13. You have a -5 to your attempt because I'm standing up, and -1 from FP loss. Good luck!
https://dicelog.com/joinlogdice I rolled a 10. I can't remember how to calculate my evade (was your 13 from DX12 + One Foe? aren't you also -1 to DX from FP loss?) but I'm pretty sure that's not high enough to absorb that annoying basic -5.

I guess since I can't attack you from behind, I'll attack you from the front. Due to that killer -4 to hit (my +1 from Evaluate just means I can ignore the -1 to DX from FP loss) my Boxing 14 at http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/...dex.php?id=one is reduced to Boxing 10...

You know... it occurs to me, Boxing 14 obviously makes right-hand punches my most accurate thing. But with the -4 on left hand punches, they're as inaccurate as kicking (DX12 minus 2) and just have the benefit of not falling down...

Slams on the other hand, can be done at full DX, so I could hit with them at skill 12, or in this case an 8 to hit instead of a 6 for a left-handed punch on a M+A. I probably should've done that earlier... off-hand punching stinks!

I think I'll open up my usual DWA (2ap reduces 7/12 to 5/12 AP) by using Extra Effort in Combat: Heroic Charge (2 ap reduces 5/12 ap to 3/12 ap) to offset the -4 to hit and skill cap of 9) and have the first half be a slam (random hit location as always)

12 minus 4 (DWA) being 8 isn't very good, so I'll roll against a Telegraphic Slam (12 to hit) I got an 8 and succeeded. Rolled a 10 on random hit location so per https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9v...ZGNjdJejg/view it is a chest hit. Rolled a 1 on sub-location D so your Vitals are targeted.

Yet again I could've scraped by without having to telegraph it... but since I did, you get +2 to defend against it. The -1 to defend against DWAs is offset by your +1 One Foe. Your dodge 9 parry 11 is reduced to 8/10 due to FP loss.

You have 8/10 AP from having obstructed the evasion. Since you used your free step already, you would have to spend 1 AP to retreat. Do you defend? If so, roll, indicate <= target number in 2nd field

02-01-2019, 10:07 AM   #86
ericthered
Hero of Democracy

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Plane Do you think we should adapt the rule "you may make unarmed parries with a handless arm" from the One Hand disadvantage (B147) to allow ANYONE (not just handless people) to parry using the arm instead of the hand?....
unarmed parries are already considered to be arms rather than hands. Look at the parry unarmed rules on basic 376: a failed parry unarmed against a weapon allows the attacker to hit your arm, not your hand.
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Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog

 02-01-2019, 10:29 AM #87 ericthered Hero of Democracy     Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: far from the ocean Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red As a note, a crushing damage to the vitals is effectivally a normal attack to the torso. a ST 11 slam is considered a 11 lb weapon, and I have basic lift 16.2 at the moment, so I can parry it (though its somewhat silly...) I'll go ahead at burn an extra AP to retreat: I'll end up on the winning end of the FP battle anyways... Parry 11 -1 (FP loss) -1 (DWA) +1 (one foe) +2 (telegraphic) +1 retreat = 13 and I rolled 13. very glad I chose to retreat. I'm at 6/10 AP. Make your second attack. Please note I get a retreat bonus against that as well. __________________ Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog
02-01-2019, 01:57 PM   #88
Plane

Join Date: Aug 2018
Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ericthered unarmed parries are already considered to be arms rather than hands. Look at the parry unarmed rules on basic 376: a failed parry unarmed against a weapon allows the attacker to hit your arm, not your hand.
I believe Grabbing Parry and Aggressive Parry open up the hand to be targeted, so perhaps the -4 to skill (-2 to parry) for using the off-hand should apply only to those, but not standard unarmed parries?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ericthered As a note, a crushing damage to the vitals is effectivally a normal attack to the torso.
Martial Arts introduced some options there for it being a hit to the solar plexus, definitely more effective.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ericthered I'll go ahead at burn an extra AP to retreat: I'll end up on the winning end of the FP battle anyways...
Oddly I just noticed, since retreats are so inferior for Brawling parries (1 ap for +1) you pretty much have the same efficiency ratio as for Feverish Defense (2 ap for +2).

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ericthered Parry 11 -1 (FP loss) -1 (DWA) +1 (one foe) +2 (telegraphic) +1 retreat = 13 and I rolled 13. very glad I chose to retreat. I'm at 6/10 AP. Make your second attack. Please note I get a retreat bonus against that as well.
Hm... what is the penalty for reacting to something moving 4yards/second on the speed/range table? :)

02-01-2019, 02:36 PM   #89
ericthered
Hero of Democracy

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Plane I believe Grabbing Parry and Aggressive Parry open up the hand to be targeted, so perhaps the -4 to skill (-2 to parry) for using the off-hand should apply only to those, but not standard unarmed parries?
quite possible. That would work pretty well. You could still make an argument that off-hands should take a penalty to parry, but historically, the off-side is renowned for its defensive roll.

Quote:
 Martial Arts introduced some options there for it being a hit to the solar plexus, definitely more effective.
I see. It only matters for knockdown, but that matters a lot in this sort of fight. Especially with our lowered effective HT.

Quote:
 Oddly I just noticed, since retreats are so inferior for Brawling parries (1 ap for +1) you pretty much have the same efficiency ratio as for Feverish Defense (2 ap for +2).
Yep. Retreat gives me a big enough bonus that it actually makes dodge and parry equal. I parried in this case because dodge is more flexible and I want to leave it available in case you do something that penalizes parry.

Quote:
 Hm... what is the penalty for reacting to something moving 4yards/second on the speed/range table? :)
To try and hit it with a ranged weapon? -1. To hit it with a melee weapon? none, as far as I can tell. To dodge or parry it? none.
__________________
Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog

02-02-2019, 09:40 PM   #90
Plane

Join Date: Aug 2018
Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ericthered To try and hit it with a ranged weapon? -1. To hit it with a melee weapon? none, as far as I can tell. To dodge or parry it? none.
Your "full Douglas Cole" phrase early on probably had me wanting to channel https://gamingballistic.com/tag/dodge-this/ but that's something to consider for other battles, I suppose.

Particularly when we consider that since people's dodge is based on their Basic Speed, that they can probably also punch at equal or better velocities, so it would only make sense to penalize all the defenses we've already done basic on that... although Move+Attack might work like a sum of yards moved + basic speed (you add the speed of your sprint to the speed of your fist).

Anyway... when a Slam is dodged, I'm supposed to go sailing past you for another couple yards, as MP permits. Since I have Move 5 and only used 4 to enter your hex, and ended up not actually getting past you, I would still have 1 MP left to move past you now that you dodge, and should end up in the hex behind you...

If this were something like AOA:Double I might argue that I could wait until I'm past you to deliver my 2nd attack (possible also with Extra Attack, or Rapid Strike) but since a Dual Weapon Attack is simultaneous, I believe the 2nd half of the attack would also be delivered from the front.

Although, since you RETREATED, you would ALSO end up in the hex behind you... so in this case, I don't think I ended up getting a "free evade" as you might normally get if someone dodges your Slam, because if you dodge a Slam while retreating, so long as you retreat by the same number of hexes the Slammer over-runs your position by, you should be able to prevent them from getting behind you...

So I guess the benefit here is regardless that I've been able to maintain close contact with you, by using my final Movement Point after you retreated from the attack I made after moving the first 4 hexes.

Now, for the 2nd half of the attack... I think I'll just do a telegraphed right-handed punch to random location. There's no M+A penalty due to Extra Effort (DWA is a single attack), the -4 from DWA is cancelled by the +4 from telegraph, the -1 from FP loss is cancelled by the +1 from Evaluate, so I can roll against a 14.

I got a 9, successful! I got an 11 for RHL (abdomen) and on sub-table E got a 2: the punch targets your Digestive Tract.

I'd still be at 3/12 AP since I paid the full 2 for a DWA up front. You have 7/10 after spending an AP on your retreat, though as you mentioned you get that bonus against this attack as well. HOW DO YOU RESPOND?

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