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Old 01-17-2019, 09:10 AM   #71
ericthered
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Well, parrying does leave you open to a Beat, so dodging does have that benefit.
True, though beat only matters if I'm


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Yeah, like for example say I have bought up "Second Wind" so that I get 100% of my HT instead of 50% in AP. If I burn 1 FP, I am immediately back up to 100% AP, so the AP recovered by a successful Do Nothing would go nowhere, so that gives some purpose for it, because it's weird if suddenly you have full AP and can't do anything with it. The purpose of forcing Recovery Actions should be for getting people back up to 100%.
That does sound fair-- you can spend points above max despite PIF. I'd want to make sure you can't burn FP while in the PIF zone though.

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Eh, I thought the 'next turn' was kinda rigid, but in that case I hope taking AOD now will make up for it.
It is a touch rigid, but its not like PIF is supposed to be optional. The current set of actions satisfy me.

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Well okay, but what about a spinning backfist? Apparently if you are using Knife or Sword you can do spinning attacks with them.
That's a better point. Spinning of any kind feels like fancy training to me though. Even when its on a knife. And a spin feels very non-boxing to me.

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Actually I can always kick at DX, and with reach 2 if I wanted to take All-Out Attack (Long), but sounds somewhat reckless. That certainly wouldn't be a standard attack maneuver. I'd need to use Extra Effort on Great Lunge to get the +1 to reach on a standard Attack maneuver.
True, you can kick at DX-2, at which point your skill 9 will defeat me via laughter.

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Meanwhile, with HT 11 vs your HT 9, I am more likely to regain my AP than you. I can play this game :)
I'm not sure how AP recovery fits into the natural flow of a fight. You'd think that the lower HT opponent would favor lots of short flurries, and that the high HT opponent would want to keep the pressure up, leaving less time for recovery. But in game the HT player likes lots of short breaks, because they get AP back faster.


As a note, I'm surprised at how quick your character feels. Or at least how active. He's throwing two attacks for every one of mine. I don't feel like I'm playing a nimble guy against a tough guy, I feel like I'm playing a precise but slower veteran against a younger and quicker fighter. Despite your character having more points in the unarmed skill than mine.



[/quote]

(well, except for the eventual countdown for my leg injury adrenaline wearing off... I kinda lost track of that, should I leave it up to you to tell me when I will suffer it? That seems more realistic because me tracking it feels like metagaming with you tracking it I will be surprised)

roll vs HT 9 (10-1) to see if you recover AP from your Evaluate, then choose your next maneuver, we still both have 2 AP right now I think
[/QUOTE]


I'll post it publicly. You have 13 turns left until the pain kicks in.



My AP recover roll fails by 1 (9 vs. 10) darn.



I do nothing. Go ahead and attack at 3 yards if you dare.
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Old 01-18-2019, 08:08 PM   #72
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
True, though beat only matters if I'm
...?

TBH even though my ST is better than my DX, I don't find it an attractive option because it only applies to one limb. If I used a Beat on one leg, you'd just kick me with the other leg.

I can only see it becoming useful in a fight later on if I somehow managed to cripple a limb and limit your options. Beat is just not very good for people who rely on a menagerie of competetive combat options.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
That does sound fair-- you can spend points above max despite PIF. I'd want to make sure you can't burn FP while in the PIF zone though.
That would be a separate kind of restriction, because supposedly you can burn it whenever you like. Maybe it should be something like a free action people can only do voluntarily at the start of their turn, or involuntarily at any time?

Involuntary burns happen from injury and aren't desirable since shock counts against PIF.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
a spin feels very non-boxing to me.
I guess the 1 point technique adaptation perk covers non-karate forms getting it. Karate does need stuff to keep pace with Brawling. Boxing just gets left behind Brawling in general, of course.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
True, you can kick at DX-2, at which point your skill 9 will defeat me via laughter.
There's always telegraphing.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I'm not sure how AP recovery fits into the natural flow of a fight. You'd think that the lower HT opponent would favor lots of short flurries, and that the high HT opponent would want to keep the pressure up, leaving less time for recovery. But in game the HT player likes lots of short breaks, because they get AP back faster.
The high AP guy isn't going to want to risk wasting his recovery maneuver if he might regain more AP than he can store. Someone with HT 12 can, if they roll a 3 or 4 (MoS 8-9) recover 3 AP on an Evaluate (or untriggered Wait/AOD) or 4 AP on a Do Nothing, so they're probably going to want to spend 4 AP before they do it.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
As a note, I'm surprised at how quick your character feels. Or at least how active. He's throwing two attacks for every one of mine. I don't feel like I'm playing a nimble guy against a tough guy, I feel like I'm playing a precise but slower veteran against a younger and quicker fighter. Despite your character having more points in the unarmed skill than mine.
A lot of people can be quick if they windmill inaccurately.

I'm actually wondering if I'd be better off using Rapid Strike (two rights at -6 each) instead of DWA (right at -4, left at -8) representing a double-jab instead of a one-two combo.

They're very similar and it's the -1 to defend that DWA gives which puts it over the top in my eyes. I should be taking that -1 to damage from left-handed punches into account though. It hasn't come up so far.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I do nothing.
Dropping your accumulating Evaluate bonus to get that sweet +4 eh?

Well, it's my turn. You didn't trigger my AOD so I get my HT roll. I get a 14, failure.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Go ahead and attack at 3 yards if you dare.
I can play that game, I also Do Nothing!. Make your HT+4 roll!

(it feels weird there being such high odds of not regaining any AP at all. If I were using the ⅒AP idea, maybe something like "everyone rolls at +10, but divides MoS by 10" could give results that are a little less all-or-nothing)
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Old 01-21-2019, 08:19 AM   #73
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
...?

TBH even though my ST is better than my DX, I don't find it an attractive option because it only applies to one limb. If I used a Beat on one leg, you'd just kick me with the other leg.
Oh, beat is only important if your ST is higher than your DX. Your ST is equal to your DX, not higher.


Quote:
I can only see it becoming useful in a fight later on if I somehow managed to cripple a limb and limit your options. Beat is just not very good for people who rely on a menagerie of competetive combat options.
Beat is a ST-based roll, and those just struggle in Gurps.


Quote:
That would be a separate kind of restriction, because supposedly you can burn it whenever you like. Maybe it should be something like a free action people can only do voluntarily at the start of their turn, or involuntarily at any time?
No, you need to be able to burn in at any time except PIF, because that's when you mentally can't push yourself any harder.


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I guess the 1 point technique adaptation perk covers non-karate forms getting it. Karate does need stuff to keep pace with Brawling. Boxing just gets left behind Brawling in general, of course.

Boxing has two massive bonus over brawling: it gets a damage bonus and it gets to use the higher retreat bonus.


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The high AP guy isn't going to want to risk wasting his recovery maneuver if he might regain more AP than he can store. Someone with HT 12 can, if they roll a 3 or 4 (MoS 8-9) recover 3 AP on an Evaluate (or untriggered Wait/AOD) or 4 AP on a Do Nothing, so they're probably going to want to spend 4 AP before they do it.

Well, he doesn't want 1 second of break for every second of attack. But breaks benefit the guy with higher endurance more than they benefit the guy with lower endurance much of the time.


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A lot of people can be quick if they windmill inaccurately.
But it doesn't feel like innaccurate windmilling. The classic innaccurate windmiller gets knocked down with a simple punch, because he's all out attacking. This guy is taking an exhausting number of accurate if unsubtle punches, each of which has to be blocked.


Rolled another 5! why wasn't I attacking? oh well. I gain 3 AP, and I'm now at 5. I do nothing again. Lets run out that clock. 12 turns of adrenaline left.
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Old 01-21-2019, 03:30 PM   #74
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Oh, beat is only important if your ST is higher than your DX. Your ST is equal to your DX, not higher.
Right... if it were the case you could only resist with ST it might work but since you can use your uberDX, it doesn't help.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Boxing has two massive bonus over brawling: it gets a damage bonus and it gets to use the higher retreat bonus.
Brawl gets dmg bonus, just a little slower... everyone gets the +3 to retreat when dodging, which is generally what boxers seem to be reduced to doing against leg kicks anyway, so being able to parry better when retreating doesn't help in that situation, as evidenced here.

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This guy is taking an exhausting number of accurate if unsubtle punches, each of which has to be blocked.
Well, not EACH one, "2nd half missed" here.

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Rolled another 5! why wasn't I attacking? oh well. I gain 3 AP, and I'm now at 5. I do nothing again. Lets run out that clock. 12 turns of adrenaline left.
Nice MoS of 8 (target 13 due to 10-1+4) giving a +2. I roll against 12-1+4 so my target is 15... I got an 8, which is merely MoS of 7, so I only got 2 AP back. I would've also gotten 3 if not for that darned -1 to HT from my 10% drop in FP!

So now I have 4/12 AP 9/12 FP and you have 5/10 AP 8/10 FP, I think? I'm going to Do Nothing again, I have 8 more to go until I'm topped out whereas you only have 5 more to go!
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Old 01-22-2019, 09:54 AM   #75
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

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Right... if it were the case you could only resist with ST it might work but since you can use your uberDX, it doesn't help.
very true. It'd also work if your ST was higher than your DX. Or your comparative ST. When rolling ST contests I like to multiply both ST by 10/lower ST, so that the weaker guy always has 10 and the stronger guy has a number above 10.

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Brawl gets dmg bonus, just a little slower... everyone gets the +3 to retreat when dodging, which is generally what boxers seem to be reduced to doing against leg kicks anyway, so being able to parry better when retreating doesn't help in that situation, as evidenced here.
The damage bonus doesn't go as high for Brawling. They only get the bonus at 4 points. I don't know if I'd call that "slower": boxing gets it at an earlier comparative skill, but at the same point cost. Karate also follows that pattern.

The longer I look at boxing, the more I am convinced that the lack of a good defense again kicks is a mistake. Gurps has long maintained that karate is not just Karate, that judo is not just Judo, and that the stuff you learn is likely as not to be an art or sport form anyways. That logic should probably be extended to boxing. Even if it can't kick (or can only kick without damage bonus) combat boxing should include defenses against low blows.

This is not to say that I want to switch over to allowing it now, if only because I'm invested in this fight and I want to win, and I'm curious how this paradigm works out.

lwcamp has some alternate rules on turning the unarmed combat skills into fewer skills plus a few techniques. I think you'll like them.

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So now I have 4/12 AP 9/12 FP and you have 5/10 AP 8/10 FP, I think? I'm going to Do Nothing again, I have 8 more to go until I'm topped out whereas you only have 5 more to go!
And 11 seconds until the pain kicks in. Though I'm not sure how game changing that will be. And If you don't understand what your enemy is doing, that's when you should be the most afraid. (coincidentally, that's why fighting newbies can be so scary!)

Rolled a 9. The dice love it when I rest. 7 AP.

I continue to do nothing!
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Old 01-22-2019, 11:35 AM   #76
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
The longer I look at boxing, the more I am convinced that the lack of a good defense again kicks is a mistake. Gurps has long maintained that karate is not just Karate, that judo is not just Judo, and that the stuff you learn is likely as not to be an art or sport form anyways. That logic should probably be extended to boxing.
Or sumo?

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Even if it can't kick (or can only kick without damage bonus) combat boxing should include defenses against low blows.
Well it does, just at -2, or relying on dodging. Boxers' training in dodging was reflected as a form of 1 Enhanced Dodge per 8 points, that's not present in 4e so you'd probably buy Enhanced Dodge (~Thrust Only -40% Requires Boxing roll -10%) to reflect that

This is not to say that I want to switch over to allowing it now, if only because I'm invested in this fight and I want to win, and I'm curious how this paradigm works out.

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And 11 seconds until the pain kicks in. Though I'm not sure how game changing that will be.
Not much, since I probably will just choose not to throw kicks to avoid the penalty. Maybe I should try some while I can? Kicking at D12-2=10 is about that same as punching at Boxing 14 -4 for off hand... so really the only reason not to do punch+kick during a DWA is the possibility of falling down on a miss...

Come to think of it, the +1 to hit the leg makes me a more accurate kicker in that situation. The -2 to hit the leg is a better option since I either force you to take a -2 for lowline parries or use your inferior dodge, as you've been doing with me.

And If you don't understand what your enemy is doing, that's when you should be the most afraid. (coincidentally, that's why fighting newbies can be so scary!)

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Rolled a 9. The dice love it when I rest. 7 AP. I continue to do nothing!
I got a 6 against a 15, MoS9 means +2 bonus so I'm up to 7 AP too.

On the off chance I managed a 3 (MoS 12) I could gain 5 AP, bringing me up to 12. I'll choose another Do Nothing on the off chance that happens. Make your roll!
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Old 01-23-2019, 06:55 AM   #77
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

I roll a 10 and only recover 1. That brings me to 8 AP, and I'm fine with that.



Lets continue this little lull. I do nothing. 10 turns of adrenaline left.
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Old 01-25-2019, 09:44 AM   #78
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

https://dicelog.com/joinlogdice I got a 9, MoS 6 under 15, and recover 2 more AP, bringing me up to 9/12

I'll do another Do Nothing, odds of a MoS of 8+ seems pretty low
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Old 01-28-2019, 08:26 AM   #79
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

I only recover 1 AP. I'm at 9/10. Red is feeling more engaged, and studies the battlefield again rather than completely resting, and puts some space between him and his foe.



Evaluate maneuver, as well as stepping back 1 yard.
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Old 01-28-2019, 02:20 PM   #80
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

I got a 10, MoS5 means I recover 2 AP, bringing me up to 11/12. Looks like we're both down 1 from our max.

Your backing up a step puts us 4 yards apart, since you had previously increased our gap 2>3...

I'll Evaluate as well, and use my free step to narrow the gap back from 4>3
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