Un-nerfed Mages

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by Mettius

I'm thinking this would unbalance the game pretty badly (point wise). But what does everyone else think?

I completely agree. The Magic system is already too powerfull in that it ignores some basic assumptions of GURPS (such as not pricing absolutes), and the price not being directly related to the usefullness and power of the spell, but how far along the prereq. chain it is. You still get more complex spells that are more expensive, but the price is not based on how powerful they are exactly.
Add to this the incredible flexibility of enhancements and limitations and you've got a munchkin's dream on your hands.
I might consider it fair if the mage paid x1.5 or x2 for EVERYTHING (Magery, Spells, etc) because he's a unique mage with this capability. But still, that's hardly apropriate.

I agree with Rogue, if you're going to stick to the magic system, make spells akin to Telesend, Magic Missile, etc...

Oh and if you want to model Saruman and Sauron (affecting 10k orcs) you're going to need A LOT more than 200 character points...

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Mettius

So in another playing group, the suggestion to use Malediction (B106) to modify the cost of regular (or other) spells (or perhaps the Magery advantage itself), which would let you pay x1.5 cost for the Range Table penalties ILO Regular or x2 cost for the Long Distance Tables.

I'm thinking this would unbalance the game pretty badly (point wise). But what does everyone else think?

There are some rules coming up in Thaumatology for this. Thumbnail sketch is no, don't balance it by spending N times the FP - that's totally unbalanced. IIRC shifting it from a Regular spell to one that takes Speed-Range penalties, from Thaumatology, would be -10 to skill, +10 FP cost stunt (or -5 skill/+5 FP, my memory is fuzzy). However, there's also a technique you can buy to reduce the skill penalty AND the FP cost. Going from Regular to Long Range penalties is twice that, and I think a separate technique, but it could just be extensions of the same technique (there was some debate).

[Dustin]

Originally Posted by Mettius

1. Regular spells seem impossibly hard to use outside of effective melee ranges. (-1/yrd to skill)

As others have pointed out, Telecast and Throw Spell are your friends here.

Originally Posted by Mettius

2. Fatigue rules cause any but super high skilled mages to drop quickly unless they cast 1FP spells.

It looks like this campaign expects a higher level of sustained output from its mages than the stock rules allow. Simply removing the "realistic" HT+30% cap on purchasing Fatigue seems like a sufficient fix, or you can go with more exotic solutions like UMana.

Originally Posted by Mettius

3. We don't like the "powered by batteries" feel of manastone based mage-might.

Understandable. Powerstones give a very particular flavor to a magical "economy", that may not fit every campaign. GURPS Discworld had a fun alternative, in which Powerstones are not available, but most wizards use a variant of the Staff spell that lets them store IQ+Magery worth of Fatigue in the staff, which can also be quickly recharged from ordinary Fatigue (~3pts/minute). Just decide how you want magic to look, then create balanced mechanics to make it work that way. It's a toolkit.

[Mettius]

Originally Posted by Dustin

As others have pointed out, Telecast and Throw Spell are your friends here.

A floating eyeball 6 feet from the target just doesn't hit the astetics I'm looking for. Though mechanically I agree this meta spell will fit the bill.

It looks like this campaign expects a higher level of sustained output from its mages than the stock rules allow. Simply removing the "realistic" HT+30% cap on purchasing Fatigue seems like a sufficient fix, or you can go with more exotic solutions like UMana.

You are correct, we just allowed much more magic only fatigue and this fixed this issue.

I guess the thing always in the back of my head was how to model fantasy like the more powerful Tolkien examples (Middle-earth for the most part fits in GURPS very well, being very low key spells like light, flaming acorns, and healing). Sarumon or Sauron manipulating weather or causing avalanches from hunderds of miles away. What about fantasy settings where a wizard can turn an army into pigs or reign fire on the entire army, or that sort of thing.

With the -1/yrd penalties, and no means of overcoming them it leaves mages rather point blank for the most part.

We have picked up this campain again after a few months off, and it looks like we are going to go with one of our house rule's proposals which is for Regular and Area spells range penalties are Yards/(Magery)*-1, (or stated another way -1 per multple of yards equal to Magery.

We'll see how it works.

[Mettius]

Originally Posted by Bruno

There are some rules coming up in Thaumatology for this.

What is this Thaumatology you speak of? A new release? This post is 6 months old, I just jumped over to e23 and didn't see this anywhere (nor on new releases). Prey tell your secrets! :)

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Mettius

What is this Thaumatology you speak of? A new release? This post is 6 months old, I just jumped over to e23 and didn't see this anywhere (nor on new releases). Prey tell your secrets! :)

It's on the list of Future Releases but doesn't have its own page yet. There was a playtest a while back but because it doesn't have a page yet, I would expect to see it in 2008, possibly in the first quarter.

If we're lucky it will be out this year, but I believe there's a few more things in the pipeline before it consuming the editorial and art resources (such as the Vehicle Design book, which has so many numbers in it I'm not surprised it's being a nightmare to edit).

In a nutshell, it's sort of the spell system's answer to Powers, or the combat system's answer to Martial Arts. Piles of optional rules, alternative or variant systems, etc. It's not a spell catalog, it's guidelines for overhauling, expanding on, or tweaking the spells-as-skills routine.

[Kromm]

I should be done editing Thaumatology by late October. That makes it a likely first-third-of-2008 release, but not a 2007 release. Apologies for the slow edit, but I've had surgery, floors ripped up (at home, where I also work), dental work, etc., shoulder to shoulder since I received the ms. in June.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I should be done editing Thaumatology by late October. That makes it a likely first-third-of-2008 release, but not a 2007 release.

Nice to know my guestimate was in the right region :D

Originally Posted by Kromm

Apologies for the slow edit, but I've had surgery, floors ripped up (at home, where I also work), dental work, etc., shoulder to shoulder since I received the ms. in June.

You've also been tangled up in Martial Arts, and we know that SJG needs more Kromms to spread around various projects.

(I still think someone needs to take High TL +4, Super Gadgeteer, and Multimillionaire 6, and then invent a way to relentlessly duplicate the Krommly Presence so we can have one Kromm for each project...)

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Bruno

(I still think someone needs to take High TL +4, Super Gadgeteer, and Multimillionaire 6, and then invent a way to relentlessly duplicate the Krommly Presence so we can have one Kromm for each project...)

Like all those Warhols in Miracleman, only more practical *g*

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Kromm

(...) earned character points in GURPS aren't in any sense "experience points" (xp) awarded to the character for feats and deeds, but are "bonus points" given by the GM to the player as a reward for attendance and good roleplaying, and in theory redeemable for anything the GM chooses to offer. This includes temporary and permanent benefits for the PC -- which should logically be both both in-game and meta-game, since the points themselves are awarded for meta-game concerns.

My own feeling is that earned points represent the PC's "karma bank," earned by being true to principles and self (i.e., being roleplayed consistently by the player). While awarded on the meta-game level, bonus points might actually have a measurable in-game presence visible to fortune-tellers and oracles. As a result, I have no problems with them working as an expendable resource, like FP or HP, that can be burned to produce greater-than-usual results. In fact, I find this interpretation exceptionally pleasing.

A bit off-topic, but I want to highlight these excellent observations.

Indeed, wouldn't it be better to officially remark this meaning of earned CPs?