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Old 07-28-2019, 12:36 PM   #1
Original_Carl
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Zero Damage Result

Dear Fantasy Trip Forums,

I never thought this would happen to me.

It started out as a typical ITL session running through The Death Test. Then in the heat of combat, one of the players rolled three 1s on a javelin throw at a bear and did...no damage.

How could this happen? According to this forum's strict interpretation of the rules (New Pole Weapon Rules thread), and relying only on the text contained within ITLs pages, one can roll a Triple Damage Result (3 ones) and score no damage with any of several weapons.

There was much weeping and gnashing of teeth at the game table. Questions included,

"WHAT?"
"Come ON! Are you serious?!"
"Why cant we roll three different damage dice if it's x3?"
"How does a critical hit with any weapon do NO DAMAGE?!"
"Come ON! What is your problem?"
"Does that mean we can get negative damage results?"
"Your game sucks!"

We got through it. In the interest of fairness I let her roll three damage results and add them together.

This brought up the possibility of any zero-damage result. With a number of weapons, it's possible to hit (even automatically hit with a 5) and get no damage or even negative damage. Personally, I don't like this. I think armor does a fine job of representing the case of a hit that does no damage and doesn't make the player feel like he/she is getting a bad deal.

I feel like this would have been discussed already and in some depth, but I did some forum searches (not my strongest skill, admittedly) and didn't find anything relevant aside from the Pole Weapon discussion I cited, above.

I'd like to hear if there's an official position on this from SJG and if so, what it is. I appreciate the thoughtful replies of the forum.

Thanks!

-Carl
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Old 07-28-2019, 05:47 PM   #2
kjamma4
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicagoland Area, Illinois
Default Re: Zero Damage Result

I'd go with a house rule borrowed from an optional rule in D&D.

Don't roll one set of damage and multiply - roll two/three sets depending on the critical hit.

In addition, for the first set, don't roll but assume it did maximum damage.

Ex. Rapier normal hit is 1d6, double damage is 1d6+6, triple damage is 2d6+6

You may also want to house rule that any set that comes up with a zero result actually does a minimum of 1 damage.

Thrown Rock normal 1d-4, double damage 2 plus 1d-4 (minimum of 1 on that set) for a minimum of 3 total damage, triple damage would be minimum of 4 total damage.
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Old 07-28-2019, 10:19 PM   #3
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Zero Damage Result

What about...

"On a triple damage result the damage done is triple the rolled damage or maximum weapon damage, whichever is the higher."
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Old 07-29-2019, 11:49 AM   #4
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Zero Damage Result

Rolling zero damage has been asked about several times on this forum. So it's clear that there is a notable portion of players who balk at rolling zero damage, even more so on double or triple-damage results.

Of course, there are also players who don't feel it's a problem (including, apparently, the original designer, and I don't remember any Q&A during the original run about it), and of course the targets tend to enjoy the possibility of light weapons doing no damage even on a 3 on the to-hit roll.

The main counter-point I see is that it's using one of the lightest weapons in the game that creates a possibility for zero damage, and if you change that, then it over-represents the weaker weapons. Rolling a 3 or 4 doesn't take skill or anything but luck into account, but the damage a weapon does is a meaningful thing, and using a more potent weapon will remove the chance of zero damage.

Other points to consider:

* It's not really clear in the rules whether you're supposed to roll a multiplied number of dice (which is what we did), or roll the usual dice and then multiply. The latter may seem simpler and more intuitive, but multiplying the dice is actually specified in the only place I remember - in the Death Test 2 explanation of torch damage versus monsters who take double damage to fire - 1d-2 becomes 2d-4. Using more dice greatly reduces the odds or rolling zero damage (and also reduces the odds of rolling maximum damage). It also is pretty fun to roll and hear and see more dice rolling at once (assuming you have enough dice at hand).

* It probably makes sense to check in with your players to see how they feel about the issue.
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Old 07-29-2019, 12:03 PM   #5
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Zero Damage Result

We never considered that "triple damage" could mean "triple the number of dice and modifiers." Surely if that was the intention then that's what would have been written in the rules? Double and triple damage was always clear to us: rolled Damage x2 or3.
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Old 07-29-2019, 12:25 PM   #6
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Zero Damage Result

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
We never considered that "triple damage" could mean "triple the number of dice and modifiers." Surely if that was the intention then that's what would have been written in the rules? Double and triple damage was always clear to us: rolled Damage x2 or3.
So it might seem, but somehow that's not what we thought.

And is there anyplace that actually says which it is, other than that place in Death Test 2 where it says to double 1d-2 to 2d-4?


Edit: Ah, actually there is one, on Turn 5 of the combat example in ITL, the result is doubled rather than rolling double dice.


(BTW, another reason to roll more dice is it preserves the possibility to do any amount of damage, not just even multiples of 2 or 3.)

Last edited by Skarg; 07-29-2019 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 07-29-2019, 02:38 PM   #7
kjamma4
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicagoland Area, Illinois
Default Re: Zero Damage Result

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
We never considered that "triple damage" could mean "triple the number of dice and modifiers." Surely if that was the intention then that's what would have been written in the rules? Double and triple damage was always clear to us: rolled Damage x2 or3.
Mathematically, 1d+1 times 2 is 2d+2
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Old 07-29-2019, 02:49 PM   #8
kjamma4
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicagoland Area, Illinois
Default Re: Zero Damage Result

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Rolling a 3 or 4 doesn't take skill or anything but luck into account,
Yes, it all depends on your outlook on a "lucky" hit. Does it mean you were extraordinarily lucky to hit or extraordinarily lucky to do damage?

As you've pointed out, different groups lean different directions.

For me, nothing moves the Suckometer to 11 faster that doing a "critical" hit and doing zero damage.

That's already accounted for by armor's damage reduction.
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Old 07-29-2019, 03:05 PM   #9
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Zero Damage Result

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjamma4 View Post
Mathematically, 1d+1 times 2 is 2d+2

I'm not a Mathematician, but it seems to me that;

if you roll 1 Damage dice the chance of getting a 6 is "1 in 6" or 16.7%. So on a double damage roll you have 16.7% chance of getting 12 Damage points.

If you roll 2 Damage dice, the chance of getting a 12 is only 2.78%.

So you're far better off, in terms of maximum (and minimum) damage if you multiply rather than adding more dice.

I'm sure the mathematical types can either verify this or otherwise.
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Old 07-29-2019, 03:41 PM   #10
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Zero Damage Result

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
I'm not a Mathematician, but it seems to me that;

if you roll 1 Damage dice the chance of getting a 6 is "1 in 6" or 16.7%. So on a double damage roll you have 16.7% chance of getting 12 Damage points.

If you roll 2 Damage dice, the chance of getting a 12 is only 2.78%.

So you're far better off, in terms of maximum (and minimum) damage if you multiply rather than adding more dice.

I'm sure the mathematical types can either verify this or otherwise.
DISCLAIMER: This is what I remember from the probability and statistics class I took in the 80s, although I did check it just now with Google :)

You are correct. You can represent each die as a discrete random variable with a linear distribution. Adding more and more of them together gives you a fatter and fatter normal distribution with the extreme values happening less often and the middle values happening more often. This does have the advantage of making zero damage happen less frequently but it can still happen.

Personally, I like Blades & Black Magic's approach:

Code:
4: maximum damage
3: double maximum damage

Last edited by zot; 07-29-2019 at 04:03 PM. Reason: disclaimer
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