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Old 08-15-2019, 02:17 PM   #21
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Middle Earth: Melee (TFT) or Man to Man (GURPS)

Magic in middle earth games feels to me like a widely debated non problem. The books present you with a variety of different 'takes' on the frequency and distribution of magical (or effectively magical) powers, so a wide range of approaches can result in something that feels canonical. The only place where you need to use some thought is in pruning spell lists so that magical powers have effects in keeping with the setting. I.e., no teleportation; invisibility, lightning and weapon enchantment is fine; etc.
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Old 08-15-2019, 02:23 PM   #22
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: Middle Earth: Melee (TFT) or Man to Man (GURPS)

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Magic in middle earth games feels to me like a widely debated non problem. The books present you with a variety of different 'takes' on the frequency and distribution of magical (or effectively magical) powers, so a wide range of approaches can result in something that feels canonical. The only place where you need to use some thought is in pruning spell lists so that magical powers have effects in keeping with the setting. I.e., no teleportation; invisibility, lightning and weapon enchantment is fine; etc.
That's more or less my thinking on the matter.
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:06 PM   #23
Steve Plambeck
 
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Default Re: Middle Earth: Melee (TFT) or Man to Man (GURPS)

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Magic in middle earth games feels to me like a widely debated non problem. The books present you with a variety of different 'takes' on the frequency and distribution of magical (or effectively magical) powers, so a wide range of approaches can result in something that feels canonical. The only place where you need to use some thought is in pruning spell lists so that magical powers have effects in keeping with the setting. I.e., no teleportation; invisibility, lightning and weapon enchantment is fine; etc.
Can add to that fire spells, shadow, staff, and the first time I read the Blast spell in original Wizard I said to myself, "Aha! That is exactly what Gandalf used when the goblins tried to abduct him along with Bilbo and the dwarves that night they went to sleep in the cave!" Alas that scene never made it into Peter Jackson's Hobbit, because he left Gandalf behind in Rivendell -- one of many little changes I find annoyingly spurious.
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Old 08-22-2019, 07:55 AM   #24
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Default Re: Middle Earth: Melee (TFT) or Man to Man (GURPS)

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Can add to that fire spells, shadow, staff, and the first time I read the Blast spell in original Wizard I said to myself, "Aha! That is exactly what Gandalf used when the goblins tried to abduct him along with Bilbo and the dwarves that night they went to sleep in the cave!" Alas that scene never made it into Peter Jackson's Hobbit, because he left Gandalf behind in Rivendell -- one of many little changes I find annoyingly spurious.
My idea at the moment is to have characters create only fighters. I’ll use rules for Wizards just to give relevant abilities to the appropriate NPC’s the players will stumble across, much like TOR. I could be persuaded to let players learn a few ‘spells’ if they seemed fitting for a particularly magical culture...such as a high elf but only at the GM’s discretion. TOR is great for storytelling, but a big part of me just wants to run a scary sandbox survival campaign in Wilderland with a bunch of inexperienced PC’s. I’m thinking: tracking rations, slow-healing wounds, travel fatigue, OP horrifying beasts that the PC’s should probably not engage in combat, etc.
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:40 PM   #25
JLV
 
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Apparently the Witch King of Angmar was a sorcerer, the owners of the nine rings "became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old." So one way to be a TFT wizard in a Middle Earth setting might be to arrange to become a king or queen with a ring of power :).
I believe the Witch King of Angmar WAS the Lord of the Nazgul -- so basically the Nazgul had some sorcerous powers. On the negative side, they (like the Barrow Wight, come to think of it) were a form of undead. So maybe the way to gain sorcerous powers (other than being born into a certain family or two) would be to DIE! ;-) But again, the magic in Tolkien is much more similar to Conan than it is to the way TFT plays it. It involves illusions, visions, fogs, all kind of indirect things, but only Gandalf ever does anything "explosive" magically speaking, and that could be directly related to his possessing the Ring of Fire. And the owners of the nine who "became mighty in their day" were also using a magic item to do so (even though, in the end, it turned them into a sort of lich...).

Also, it's worth noting that, according to The Silmarillion, the Balrogs were also "fallen" Maia that had sworn allegiance to Morgoth in the first age...

So, in short, all your main magic users were one form or another of "angelic beings" (either still working for the Lords of the West, or who had betrayed them at one time or another and were thus "fallen" but still retaining their powers to one degree or another -- see Morgoth, q.v.), and the only other folks who showed much in the way of aptitude for that sort of thing were all either certain selected Elves (who had either lived in the Blessed Realm -- Galadriel -- during the time of the two trees or were themselves descended from a Maia via Thingol and Melian -- Elrond), and full-blooded Numenoreans (all of whom that are mentioned in the books are ALSO descended from Thingol and Melian via Luthien and Beren). The sole exception is "The Mouth of Sauron," but even he is described as a "renegade Numenorean" whose antecedents are never described, so it's entirely possible he was also descended from Luthien and Beren -- and that adds an even more piquant and evil twist to Sauron's successful corruption of him, doesn't it? ;-)

The only other uses of "magic" I can recall in the books either involved some mortal using a magic item (Denethor using the Palantir, for example), or were called "magic" by the Hobbits, but really were just clever uses of mundane talents.

So, what does all that mean? If you want to restrict magic use in your game -- only people of certain descent can use "magic," with the exception that anyone can use a magic item (at a certain risk), and everything else is pretty much just advanced use of mundane skills and special ingredients. More like Alchemy/Herbology in most cases than anything else. Further, most "artillery" and summoning spells (anything that could directly put hits on the enemy) would be right out, unless you had a specific magic item that allowed them -- with things like Illusions and Images, and other "indirect" things (light, slippery floor, shadow, etc.) being the primary way that a Sorcerer would use to affect things. Anyway, that's my $0.02 on it, for whatever that's worth.

All very Conan-esque, really...

Last edited by JLV; 08-30-2019 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 08-31-2019, 04:29 AM   #26
Steve Plambeck
 
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So, in short, all your main magic users were one form or another of "angelic beings" (either still working for the Lords of the West, or who had betrayed them at one time or another and were thus "fallen" but still retaining their powers to one degree or another -- see Morgoth, q.v.), and the only other folks who showed much in the way of aptitude for that sort of thing were all either certain selected Elves
Very few interpretations of Tolkien's works strike me as being as spot-on as everything you just mentioned in this post, JLV.

Back away in this or a related discussion I mentioned that, in so far as adding "mortal" wizards to a Middle-Earth setting perhaps the White Council's labeling of the entity in Dol Guldur as a "necromancer" might be sufficient precedent. I was uncomfortable suggesting that soon after I'd written it, and you just reminded me why. There are sufficient "angelic beings" in the mythos to account for renegade magic users without a single TFT-style wizard character drawn from the general population in the mix. If Tolkien himself was the GM, I suspect no such player characters would be be allowed.
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:01 PM   #27
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If Tolkien himself was the GM, I suspect no such player characters would be be allowed.
/\ This. /\

I think that pretty much nails it. To Tolkien, magic was definitely something mere mortals weren't supposed to be doing...and if they found a magic item, it almost invariably corrupted them in some way. E.g., the ring's effect on everybody, the Palantir's effect on Denethor -- and use against Pippin, etc. Aragorn could use the Palantir because it was "his birthright" and because the blood of a Maia flowed in his veins...
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Old 09-07-2019, 06:47 AM   #28
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Default Re: Middle Earth: Melee (TFT) or Man to Man (GURPS)

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To Tolkien, magic was definitely something mere mortals weren't supposed to be doing...and if they found a magic item, it almost invariably corrupted them in some way. E.g., the ring's effect on everybody....
I completely agree with the actual point being made. Good observations.

And yet, I must clarify an unintended implication here, and help restore Sam's reputation, which has been slandered and ruined in those awful movies. Sam was not corrupted by the ring, his steadfastness and innocence of purpose allowed him to use the ring and remain true. Uniquely even inside Mordor itself. Sam is the moral beacon of the story, even though not the main protagonist: he shows a person fighting and passing through adversity and the temptations of power without losing themselves. #truehero

Back to the discussion. :)
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Old 09-07-2019, 08:38 AM   #29
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Middle Earth: Melee (TFT) or Man to Man (GURPS)

I totally disagree with the 'limited magic' interpretation of middle earth. The books are filled with vast numbers of casual references to magical objects, beings (including people) and acts, and there is a background acceptance in all the characters that this is true. Gandalf is the wizard at the center of your focus, and he's something special, but it is not accurate to say more mundane beings can't perform magic or use magic items without coming to mischief.
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Old 09-07-2019, 10:01 AM   #30
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Middle Earth: Melee (TFT) or Man to Man (GURPS)

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I totally disagree with the 'limited magic' interpretation of middle earth. The books are filled with vast numbers of casual references to magical objects, beings (including people) and acts, and there is a background acceptance in all the characters that this is true. Gandalf is the wizard at the center of your focus, and he's something special, but it is not accurate to say more mundane beings can't perform magic or use magic items without coming to mischief.
Yep. Look at the novice GM ( ;-) ) giving out three magic weapons in the loot of the first dangerous encounter in The Hobbit, for example. Or maybe he was a meta-reactionary GM who was just trying not to lose his players after he realized they went adventuring without having acquired any weapons... and who managed to split up their very large party including a supposedly-vastly-experieced wizard and nearly all die.

Those magic swords seemed to have no corrupting effects on anyone. Seems to have to do with whether the item was enchanted by well-intended elves, or by Sauron.
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