Running Talent in Legacy Edition

[Mike P.]

Do any of you like the way Running worked in original TFT, i.e. + 2 MA regardless of what armor is worn? Or do you prefer the legacy edition where Running only gives you +2 MA in leather or lighter armor?

I think Legacy Edition Running might be more realistic, but I'm leaning toward using original TFT Running in my campaign. It seems harsh that your MA in chainmail or heavier armor will never be more than 6 without magical assistance. In all the TFT campaigns I have been in or run since the early 80s, I would estimate that less than 10% of the PCs actually had chain or heavier armor, and those that did almost inevitably had Running to boost their MA up to 8.
Of course original TFT was a lot more cutthroat than Legacy Edition, in that the XPs gained were directly related to your combat prowess. If you were slower in DX and MA than your comrades, you almost always gained less XP, as your faster friends could engage the enemy quicker, outflank them, and "steal" the DX bonuses for delivering the killing blows.

[Shostak]

I preferred the +2MA regardless of armor.

[JLV]

We had a long discussion of this somewhere back around the beginning of 2018, but what it boiled down to, as I recall, was that the running talent really wouldn't increase your speed so much as it would your endurance when you are wearing heavy armor (chain and above). So really, the difference was more suitable for GURPS than it was for TFT. The upshot, I think, was the new running rule to increase your speed at the lighter encumbrance styles, and kind of ignore it for heavier armors. If you want to give your heavier guys an advantage, you could always say they require less rest to restore fatigue (assuming you track anything like that -- again, that's more a "GURPS thing" IMO), which would be a fair gesture.

Having said all of that, I can certainly see retaining the old rule, despite it's lack of "realism," simply because it makes it a more fun talent for folks to pick. That seems entirely in keeping with "fun is paramount" theory of RPG-ing! ;-)

[FireHorse]

Originally Posted by JLV

We had a long discussion of this somewhere back around the beginning of 2018, but what it boiled down to, as I recall, was that the running talent really wouldn't increase your speed so much as it would your endurance when you are wearing heavy armor (chain and above).

Would it belabor the point to ask why endurance matters? (…he asked nonchalantly, feigning an innocent smile.)

[JLV]

Originally Posted by FireHorse

Would it belabor the point to ask why endurance matters? (…he asked nonchalantly, feigning an innocent smile.)

I believe I made that point...if you read my comment that it really applies more to GURPS than TFT.

[FireHorse]

Yes, I know, but I wasn't tweaking at you — I was only pretending not to be addressing the Fourth Wall. :)

I know the TFT system is designed to be ultra-simple, but when I dig into the works, I find these stray cogs and gears that seem to imply (or invite?) a bit more complexity than is actually being employed. Fatigue / Endurance is an example.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Charles G.

Because the game will lack verisimilitude?

This is a compelling point to me, if not to everyone.

One of TFT's main strengths to me was always that the rules seemed to mostly make sense and play out such as one might expect them to, so it's like a game about the situation, more than many other RPGs which seem to be more about their own artificial abstract constructs.

Originally Posted by Charles G.

I should venture to say that if such a plot element were important to two of the greatest fantasy writers of all time, it ought to be more than good enough for you, wouldn't you agree?

On this, not so much, because I think players should play what they want, and not all GMs are up to running a game well that involves a lot of fatigue management as a major element of play.

But by the same token, some are, and as far as that goes, I do take your point and agree that for some GMs, fatigue can be an important and interesting element of play.

In The Labyrinth in fact does mention that fatigue can also be incurred by physical exertion. (e.g. Page 10 under Fatigue: "Any figure can also suffer fatigue from running too far too fast, from trying some great feat of strength, etc.") However, it then doesn't provide rules or even guidelines for fatigue except in a few cases, leaving out some the main things adventurers do: hike overland, fight, and run around. So the GM is left to extrapolate some house rules from the examples there are (e.g. mining, berserking).

For a GM capable of running a good game with routine fatigue as an element of play, I expect most could also improvise some decent house rules for it, as TFT is pretty simple, and it doesn't have to be very complex.

There's also GURPS whose fatigue rules could be borrowed readily, as attributes are about on the same ("10 is average") scale, and it does have fairly simple rules/guidlines for how much fatigue is used hiking, running, fighting, etc.

[FireHorse]

Originally Posted by Charles G.

Because the game will lack verisimilitude?

…{snip}…

I should venture to say that if such a plot element were important to two of the greatest fantasy writers of all time, it ought to be more than good enough for you, wouldn't you agree?

(…?) You must not have seen my comments elsewhere on the subject of Fatigue.

I was not suggesting that Fatigue does not matter. I was obliquely calling attention to the fact that it supposedly does matter, but nearly no rules exist to demonstrate it.

Running is a perfect example. It obviously calls for some kind of Fatigue rule, but no such rule is given.

[oldwolf]

Regarding all the discussion on endurance and the excellent example of its importance in storytelling with R.E. Howard's The Frost Giants Daughter.

I think it is futile to hope a simple game or even a super complex game run by a near sentient AI could produce such a tale. However, the tools for a GM to do so are there in TFT. A series of ST roles against slowly increasing odds, interspersed with description and dialogue between player and GM. The gradual reduction of ST in its alternate role of fatigue/endurance making each roll more critical. The final collapse into unconsciousness as the player having won the contest is stunned when Atali's father Yimir saves her at the last second. It's all there but left to the GM to apply as they see fit so it does not burden the game when its consideration would not add to story.

So, IMHO, endurance matters when it affects the story and that is best handled by the GM.

[FireHorse]

Well, I can't complain about being misunderstood when I was deliberately being facetious. :)

And I agree, I prefer a balance of both Fantasy and Realism — enough of the former to be interesting, but enough of the latter to be at least somewhat plausible. As entertaining as the visualization might be, I don't want to swing my great sword and roll 2d6 to see how many of the goblins I cleave in half with a single stroke.