Should IQ Levels for Talents Be Reduced?

[tbeard1999]

With the new 8 point limit on new attributes, should the IQ prerequisites for some of the higher IQ talents (and perhaps some spells) be reduced?

For that matter, I’d like to propose that 8 should be the average attribute for human beings, not 10. After all, there are IQ 8 *spells* available. Surely dullards couldn’t learn spells, given the TFT conception of Wizards - “A good comparison would be to doctors or engineers on our Earth.” (AW pg. 3).

That would also justify lowering the IQ requirements of a number of talents.

I’m not advocating this; I’m just asking the question. It’s something I’ve been thinking about for the last few days.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

With the new 8 point limit on new attributes, should the IQ prerequisites for some of the higher IQ talents (and perhaps some spells) be reduced?

...

Hi all, Ty.
I've changed a LOT of things in TFT, but for the most part, I've left the minimum IQ for talents alone. Two exceptions:
-- Entirely physical talents (e.g. Running), have sometimes been reduced a bit.
-- I've made enough new talents, that if there are a series of talents, (e.g. Physicker, Master Physicker, etc.) then they are arranged so that the harder talents are 2 IQ higher than the last in the set.

I don't pretend that this is realistic, it is simply an aid to help find a talent. If you know that Running is IQ 7, then Racing will be IQ 9. With it being much harder for fighters to get a high IQ, I might suggest that each talent in a series is one IQ apart.

After talking to players in my PBEM game, I was talked into making Unarmed Combat one require IQ 7. They had argued that their 8 year old kids could start going to a Dojo and learn some Martial Arts, and that helped keep the 'trained by a master' level of UC talents reasonable.

As for should talents generally be lower IQ... Hmmm... with the sharply reduced max attributes that people can now get, it likely would not be a bad idea to reduce many talents a point or two.


As for spells, I would leave them pretty much alone I think. I like the idea that spells are hard to learn... you have to be smart.

Warm regards, Rick.

[zot]

I'd go a step further and say that talents should only have one prerequisite attribute. That would make three talent lists, one for each attribute. So talents that depend on ST or DX (like Warrior, Fencing, and UC) would have no IQ requirement at all.

The UC talents in particular have extremely high requirements, UC V costs 3 and needs DX 16, IQ 14, in addition to 8 points of prerequisite talents.

If there must be an IQ requirement for talents that have another attribute prereq, I think it should max out at something like 10, maybe. Requiring IQ 14 for a physical talent doesn't seem reasonable to me.

[Steve Jackson]

This is me reading this and going Hmm.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

With the new 8 point limit on new attributes, should the IQ prerequisites for some of the higher IQ talents (and perhaps some spells) be reduced?

Maybe some specific talents. (Well, actually, I think many talents needing minimum IQ is a slightly peculiar idea - I think most people in real life can learn most skills even if they seem dull or inexperienced, though it may be harder for them to learn them and/or their dullness may show in their work, but that's getting into game-redesign territory.)

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

For that matter, I’d like to propose that 8 should be the average attribute for human beings, not 10. After all, there are IQ 8 *spells* available. Surely dullards couldn’t learn spells, given the TFT conception of Wizards - “A good comparison would be to doctors or engineers on our Earth.” (AW pg. 3).

That would also justify lowering the IQ requirements of a number of talents.

I'd disagree on many counts.

If 8 is average, that means many people have stats below 8.

The whole way the game works for non-PCs would be thrown off, so you'd want to do other things to compensate. Not only are there no talents below IQ 7, there are few weapons below ST 9, the ones that exist start having a mighty hard time doing much of anything. People with a stat of 8 are pretty lame in that stat, and people with all stats at 8, or stats less than 8, are rather incompetent, and not just by comparison to others' stats. Ordinary people with swimming would be drowning much more often. Ordinary people with climbing would be falling much more often. Ordinary people would be tripping all the time when they tried to walk across fallen bodies and broken ground. Ordinary horsemen would be falling off their horses more often. Ordinary people would be rather unobservant. Etc.

And, of course, average people would be even more slaughterable in combat than they are in original TFT. A 2-point difference in the total of ST + DX in TFT is a notable advantage, and a 4-point advantage tends to give superiority. ST 8 DX 8 fighters are pretty much just targets even to a beginning fighter.

You could start reworking things to compensate - i.e. you could make most rolls 2d6 rather than 3d6, change the weapon table, change damage calculations, give improved talent levels that boost skills despite low attributes, tweak encumbrance, etc. Could be interesting, but if the game's going to be reworked that much, I'm certainly going to advocate for quite a few other tweaks...

As for some spells being IQ 8, that can be consistent if you have it that spells involve psychic/willpower/intuitive effort and for some spells not necessarily a lot of intellect.

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

I’m not advocating this; I’m just asking the question. It’s something I’ve been thinking about for the last few days.

I think in some cases it would make sense to reduce IQ levels for talents. I certainly would for Unarmed Combat (though I'd probably rework them, too), and probably some that seem intuitive or otherwise non-intellectual (charisma, expert horsemanship, acute hearing, courtly graces) and possibly provide some lower (bashing with weapons) or higher level (via prereq not necessarily IQ level) talents if there's not going to be a memory limit.

[Skarg]

It's also worth considering that people with IQ 8, as written, can't learn some pretty common and non-intellectual talents including Climbing and all Mundane (i.e. professional) talents, so IQ 8 indicates someone pretty slow or incapable in some way. (And if 8 were average, there would be many people with IQ 7 (only weapon talents) or even 6 (no talents)). So I'd think that certainly if IQ 8 were average (and maybe even if not), some of these should come down.

[Tolenkar]

I don't see a real need to change the IQ minimum rule, but I also don't see a reason why not to. The only negative I can think of is that you would have to go over all the animal IQs to make sure that they are in line. You would want to make sure a Dolphin can't be smarter than a human in the game. Although, with some humans... I wonder.

With apologies to the human race,
Tolenkar

[JLV]

I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not. I kind of think we need to wait and see what the final form of the book looks like, but I certainly understand the logical reasoning behind the thought. Lowering some of the IQ requirements might make sense (though the good news is that IQ no longer limits the NUMBER of Talents or Spells you can have, only their LEVEL). And I agree that a lot of the purely physical talents always seemed a bit overpriced in terms of IQ requirements. After all, you could probably be as dumb as a stump and still run or swim well...

Still, changing the "average" standard from 10 to 8 may be a bit of overkill at this point in time.

[KevinJ]

I did reduce a number of talents, namely UC. I thought a number of 'purely physical' talents were also over priced and the number of talents under 11 increased quite a bit.

Thinking about it, skills with DX requirements or DX requirements AND other prerequisites should probably be reduced as well. Requiring an adjDX of 14 and a weapon talent and an IQ of 12 is unbalanced.

[Chris Rice]

I'm very fond of the Talent system pretty much as it is and would not be happy with wholesale changes. I certainly don't want average IN to be 8 or anything of that nature. If you really see a persuasive argument to reduce the IN requirement for some physical Talents then so be it, but I'd advise caution.

Looking at UC Talents for example I don't see a problem with the higher Talent levels requiring higher intelligence. I've heard people say these Talents are purely physical but I don't see them that way at all. To me, reaching the higher levels of the Talent have involved diligent study of the ancient texts, contemplation, deep meditation etc and I believe the high IQ requirement is justified. The UCV martial artist isn't a champion MMA brawler but the Wise and Mystical Master of the Kung Fu movies. This matches the "cinematic" feel and intent of the rules as stated by Steve himself.