A question about Tech Levels

[Kerdied]

My thanks to everyone! I'm getting wonderful ideas for my game.

Originally Posted by Daigoro

...or he could go the mythological route. The empire's magic is powered by the Shewolf's milk flowing from the Lupercal out into the galaxy as a hyperspace network. Spaceships are powered by Grapes of the Bacchanalia, and blast their enemies with the Divine Sunbeams of Apollo. Mech pilots are warriors who bind a strix to their back and arms to harness its scream for combat.

Mother of God.
I'm strongly considering making these mech pilots the focus of my campaign.

[The Colonel]

Incidentally for a worked example of a magic powered world of maybe TL(4+4) or so, try picking up Charles Stross' //Nightmare Stacks// - especially to see it collide with a straight TL8 world with wainscot magic.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Incidentally for a worked example of a magic powered world of maybe TL(4+4) or so, try picking up Charles Stross' //Nightmare Stacks// - especially to see it collide with a straight TL8 world with wainscot magic.

That's a very good suggestion, and that's one of the best of the Laundry novels.

[Kerdied]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

TL(2+8) would have fast interplanetary travel, blasters, bombs that can destroy whole planets, artificial life forms, advanced healing, body alteration, and all the other things you associate with TL10, only most of their technology is powered by magic. Anything from TL2 and below is just like ours; anything above is powered by magic. Instead of reading a book on a book reader, you use a scroll that uses a scrying spell to download books from central library. Instead of robots, you can buy custom-made golems. Instead of an antimatter-powered spaceship, you have a magic-powered spelljammer.

The difference between TL(2+8) and TL(3+7), if both feature a divergence having to do with the introduction of magic, is that TL(3+7) has non-magical technology as far as TL3. So for instance, while TL(2+8) never invented the non-magical printing press, TL(3+7) did.

Distinguishing between TL(2+8) and TL(3+7) would be very difficult from our perspective. Most of the non-magical advances of the latter would be so far eclipsed they wouldn't be evident anymore. TL(3+7) probably doesn't use non-magical printing presses anymore, while TL(2+8) never did. Both have blasters that shoot magical energies, but the TL(2+8) version might be based on the crossbow while the TL(3+7) version is based on primitive hand guns... if there was every any benefit to fitting magic to those forms in the first place.

You could probably more or less arbitrarily put the point of divergence, where magic was introduced, anywhere in the distant past, and it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference to the players.

My thanks for the ideas and tips.

I would ask to you how it will be a TL 2+7/2+10 or 3+6/3+9, please?
My players are not too fond of TL 10 (or 2+8/3+7).

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Kerdied

I would ask to you how it will be a TL 2+7 or 3+6, please?
My players are not too fond of TL 10 (or 2+8/3+7).

With the point of divergence that far back, it's going to be sort of hard to tell the difference. You're going to have iron swords, ox and donkey mills, and torsion catapults plus <MAGIC!>, or steel swords, wind and water mills, and trebuchets (counterweight catapults) plus <MAGIC!>. The magic is likely going to be massively more effective and take the place of most of the physical tech, the same way that we now use firearms instead of crossbows, radio instead of pigeons, and laser surgery instead of scalpels and no anesthesia.

In terms of what you can accomplish, TL9 is likely to have the kind of things we now think of as "ten years from now," like interplanetary travel, fusion power, and human-level AI (all of which have been ten years off since I was in elementary school)—but accomplished with <MAGIC!> So think of it as a bit farther out than simple technothriller, but with a feel of "realistic science fiction." TL10 is going to be more overtly science-fictiony. So limit the magic a bit so that it can do some amazing things, but you still have to think about "how exactly did magic accomplish this?" and there are still things it can't do. James Bond goes to Q and gets the latest magic wand or healing potion. The suggestion that you take a look at the Laundry novels still seems well taken; The Nightmare stacks has people from our TL battling people from a comparable TL who fight wars with unicorn cavalry, dragon riding air combat, and magical curses—and neither side can make sense of why the other is doing so much damage.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by whswhs

With the point of divergence that far back, it's going to be sort of hard to tell the difference. You're going to have iron swords, ox and donkey mills, and torsion catapults plus <MAGIC!>, or steel swords, wind and water mills, and trebuchets (counterweight catapults) plus <MAGIC!>. The magic is likely going to be massively more effective and take the place of most of the physical tech, the same way that we now use firearms instead of crossbows, radio instead of pigeons, and laser surgery instead of scalpels and no anesthesia.

In terms of what you can accomplish, TL9 is likely to have the kind of things we now think of as "ten years from now," like interplanetary travel, fusion power, and human-level AI (all of which have been ten years off since I was in elementary school)—but accomplished with <MAGIC!>

One should mention that the TL need not be uniform across all fields. Of course past a certain point the old issue of where TL(x+y) due to magic and TLx^ can come up.

Take the cannon world of Azoth-7, for example. It has "interstellar" travel but is TL(4+2) some TL4^ space and weapons; no where near TL9 where interstellar travel normally sits.

Cyrano with its TL(5+4) (space travel, TL4^) is another odd duck. If we take it literally just what does TL4^ space travel look like in an otherwise TL(5+4) world? Treasure Planet, perhaps?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kerdied

I would ask to you how it will be a TL 2+7/2+10 or 3+6/3+9, please?

Anything more than +3 in any field is likely unrecognizable, as 'X+Y' means 'the same up through X, and then divergent'. TL 2+7 is just as different from TL 2 as TL 9 is different from TL 2, it's just different in a different way.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Anything more than +3 in any field is likely unrecognizable, as 'X+Y' means 'the same up through X, and then divergent'. TL 2+7 is just as different from TL 2 as TL 9 is different from TL 2, it's just different in a different way.

Or you go all Flintstones ... which has the potential to annoy. I suppose the invocation of Asimov is possible... (not the invocation of Azathoth. That you do not want.)

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

I suppose the invocation of Asimov is possible...

Did you mean Clarke? ("Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"?) Or did Asimov have his own variation on the theme?

Turn it around ("sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology") and it shows up a lot. Sometimes attributed to Larry Niven, but it's probably been said by many people following Clarke.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by maximara

Cyrano with its TL(5+4) (space travel, TL4^) is another odd duck. If we take it literally just what does TL4^ space travel look like in an otherwise TL(5+4) world? Treasure Planet, perhaps?

Treasure Planet, honestly, is more TL 4+5^) than a flat 4^. Their ships do use some kind of rocket-looking thrusters and lots of pirate story fixtures are rendered in tech-looking ways.

I don't know how Cyrano works, but straight-up TL 4^ space travel could look like The Road Not Taken, or ships made of antigravity wood that can sail to and through space...or Spelljammers, perhaps.