[Space] Fighter-to-ship ratio: what is it and why?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by SavageDoc

Right, because we don't have the need to. Should we have the sudden need to, its stops looking silly right quick. Plowshares are better than swords... until you need a sword.

Ur, no, it still looks silly. If for some reason we were interested in having a fight in space at current technology, there's no need or use for a warship -- all that actually needs to be in space is missiles, and we might even ground launch those on demand.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Lonewulf

Well, I perceive that it would be difficult to launch a fully functional warship into space... you'd probably have to equip one that's decently armored or loaded with heavy weapons in space, and fly up the little pieces. But the costs for that would be pretty dang high and be resource-expensive...

I would build it with resources and industries already up there.

Once you get atop the gravity well, space travel gets pretty cheap. It doesn't take much to get going at a good clip, because you're not fighting an intense gravity pull (You still have to deal with the sun and such, but compared to getting off planetside, that's nothing). Realizing this, if we ever get a serious space faring civilization, we'll build something akin to a space factory in orbit (or a lagrange point), similar to how we're building the space station. This will be very expensive, but it'll repay itself eventually.

(Building something similar on the moon is an option too. It's a gravity well, but nowhere near as powerful).

For materials, you grab NEOs. There's plenty of them, and you just drag them into a lagrange point and get to work. TADA! Instant warship, just add combustibles and equipment.

It still costs a pretty penny to get fuel and such up there, but ONCE its up there, you can do quite a bit with it.

I doubt we'll see interplanetary warfare as extremely long distance ("I fire a missile from earth at a ship orbiting Mars"). It's too easy to dodge, unless you're completely immobile (like a sattelite or a space elevator), but I can see ships as roving missile platforms. The presence of a ship is a major diplomatic tool. It's much more impressive to orbit a rogue planet with a looming battleship than it is to mention cruise missiles that they won't see until they hit, and the captain of a space-barge can react more quickly to a situation at hand than someone several minutes (or more) away by light lag. Plus if you're transporting some kind of interplanetary good (Hydrogen from a gas giant, for example) and you have to deal with pirates, having an escort is handy.

So I suppose I lied. It's not just a "reason" we need, but infrastructure too. We COULD build a space barge and send it up, but there's no real point to it, as all threats come from earth, and we have plenty of earth bound weapons to deal with them. But if you want to colonize other planets, you need big ships. Big ships are best built with orbital factories so you don't have to send quite as much up when you finally go check out Mars. Once you have space colonies and orbital factories and interest in NEOs, asteroids and gas giants, then naturally, space warships will follow, to protect/attack colonies, or defend/pirate industrial interests.

Note that this scenario tends to preclude space fighters. One of the basic premises of a fighter is that "metal is expensive, but fuel is cheap, so we need to reuse the structure and weaponry of our little attack craft, but we can afford to waste fuel" while the reality is likely to be the opposite: computers are extremely light, thus easy to send off the planet, and metal is easily available in space already. Fuel, however, tends to be pricey, coming inevitably from a big gravity well. So you get missiles: We can throw away the structure and computer, but we can't throw away the fuel.

---

Someone mentioned that the reason fighters are really more like "light gunships" is that they travel in the same medium as the rest of the ships. But what if they didn't? What if FTL capable vessels had to stay "half-warped" or something, and could engage each other, but had to send "real" fighters in to do damage to planets, or to attack these half-warped ships from their vulnerable, "real space" flanks? Or something like that.

[Lonewulf]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I would build it with resources and industries already up there.

Once you get atop the gravity well, space travel gets pretty cheap.

Yes, I know. Which is why I suggested building it in space.

I thought that bit was clear in my post. I'm thinking that I'll have to double-check all my posts, as people keep telling me things I've already suggested...

The rest of your post assumes capabilities that ARE beyond us, such as not only having facilities on Mars, but also having facilities on Mars that's willing to fight with Earth... even so, there are a few comments I'd like to make:

I doubt we'll see interplanetary warfare as extremely long distance ("I fire a missile from earth at a ship orbiting Mars"). It's too easy to dodge, unless you're completely immobile

Well, use a missile that's image-seeking. We have them today; we can launch missiles miles away, and strike a target within centimeters of precision. Take that out to a longer range, and it's still perfectly possible; the missile would shift and adapt to changing conditions.

It's hard to dodge something that moves with you.

[Apache]

Assuming said missile survived to make its final approach to target, it would have a much better chance of hitting something if it was an active radar/passive IR homer.

Not that it would matter, since you could zap it with a laser or simply launch a much cheaper countermissile, I'd imagine.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Apache

Assuming said missile survived to make its final approach to target, it would have a much better chance of hitting something if it was an active radar/passive IR homer.

Not that it would matter, since you could zap it with a laser or simply launch a much cheaper countermissile, I'd imagine.

Well, why can't that be done to fighters too? They seem to inhabit every high space universe and her sister, but there's no 'cheap countermeasures' against fighters.

[Rupert]

There's no real reason. That's why you have made-up reasons, like living being all being slightly psychic, and thus able to dodge better than AIs, by precognitively knowing which way to dodge (this also makes living gunners better at guessing where to fire, too).

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Apache

Assuming said missile survived to make its final approach to target, it would have a much better chance of hitting something if it was an active radar/passive IR homer.

Not that it would matter, since you could zap it with a laser or simply launch a much cheaper countermissile, I'd imagine.

Targeting of missiles can have a lag time. If targeting systems based on the main ships miss so small a target as incoming missiles then the results can be fatal. Targeting an offensive salvo will be several hours behind at least.

Fighters can be the platforms for the countermissiles. They can be vectored onto the axis of an incoming salvo. They add an extra layer of defense and can work from closer to the incoming then the fleet's targeting.

Alternatively they can direct a friendly salvo which has gotten beyond the main fleet's directive capability.

[Lord Azagthoth]

Unmanned craft, missiles, etc. are nice as long as the opponent is technologically lagging behind your tech (not necessarily a complete TL).

I don't want to be in the commanders seat when launching a full nuclear strike at a silly enemy with his carrier and silly manned aerospace fighters to see the missles have been hacked and turned around or get captured The Expanse spoiler -

Spoiler:  

(e.g., what happened in The Expanse).

[FF_Ninja]

Originally Posted by Lord Azagthoth

Unmanned craft, missiles, etc. are nice as long as the opponent is technologically lagging behind your tech (not necessarily a complete TL).

I don't want to be in the commanders seat when launching a full nuclear strike at a silly enemy with his carrier and silly manned aerospace fighters to see the missles have been hacked and turned around or get captured (e.g., what happened in The Expanse).

AGH SPOILERS AGH

'Cause I actually read those books and I want to watch that series.

Also... killer necro on this thread.

[Lord Azagthoth]

Very careless of me.

I've put in under spoiler alert for future readers.