[Powers] Triggering Alternate Form Upon "Death"

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

I think that if the HT roll is failed by more than 2 (and therefore worse than a Mortal Wound and the character is dead) you couldn't justify transforming out of it. And unless you had some form of regeneration, I think that the rolls every 30 minutes would still have to be made for the other body...

I treat it as being put into a medically induced coma on life-support, that body can't take any more damage, period, it can only recover over time.

The cost for that is more than paid for with Reciprocal Rest and Non-Reciprocal Damage, I haven't had any issues with it in play.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Langy

I'm honestly not sure that's his intention; that's how he seems to have built it, but he never actually said that he wants to be able to turn back to the 'base form' after the resurrection.

The content of the OP seems clear to me as he is concerned with the "dead" form healing!

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

The idea is that the "dead" base form heals (from death) completely (or nearly so) on transformation to the alternate form, but then while in that form the damage is reciprocal to the base form.

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

The "upon-death" form is always healing when dormant.

So you want Reciprocal Rest.

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

I'd more want something like Extreme Regeneration to switch on to heal the base form upon the transformation, and then for the damage to be reciprocal to the base form while in the alternate, with damage to the base form never affecting the alternate form.

So you want Unkillable 2 and the base form along with Regeneration with "Only while dead, -40%" Which will regenerate you up to full, but not heal further injuries that don't kill you.

On your Alternate Form, use (Non-Reciprocal Damage, Limited Enhancement, Aspected: One Way (-20%),+40%; Reciprocal Rest, +30%; Trigger, Death, -15%) and season to taste...

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I treat it as being put into a medically induced coma on life-support, that body can't take any more damage, period, it can only recover over time.

The cost for that is more than paid for with Reciprocal Rest and Non-Reciprocal Damage, I haven't had any issues with it in play.

I don't think Reciprocal Rest should represent medical care. It has plenty of bang for it's buck without being a poor mans Unkillable. My interpretation is simply that biology continues, that means healing yes, but also cyclic poison damage, rolls for Mortal Wounds, etc.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

I don't think Reciprocal Rest should represent medical care. It has plenty of bang for it's buck without being a poor mans Unkillable. My interpretation is simply that biology continues, that means healing yes, but also cyclic poison damage, rolls for Mortal Wounds, etc.

We're talking a +80% coupled enhancement, it's not a limitation, you do not suffer cyclic poison, you do not roll for Mortal Wounds, etc., if you want bad things to happen during Reciprocal Rest then you'd need to make it a limitation, not an enhancement.

Reciprocal Rest: "In conjunction with Non-Reciprocal Damage, these forms can even recover HP and recuperate from crippling injuries." Powers, p.75

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

We're talking a +80% coupled enhancement, it's not a limitation,

Yes we're talking about a 30% and 50% enhancement. But those enhancements have their own effects, you can't just throw more utility in there and say, "well it's already at +80%! The effects of Unkillable should come along for free, I spent [12] points on enhancements!

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

you do not suffer cyclic poison, you do not roll for Mortal Wounds, etc., if you want bad things to happen during Reciprocal Rest then you'd need to make it a limitation, not an enhancement.

Bad things have already happened though, these aren't new bad things, they're the ramification of the bad things and failed rolls that have already occurred.

The "lets your other body be resting/healing" is the enhancement, curing cyclic damage, immunity to being mortally wounded are both potent abilities that are not in any way suggested or implied in the enhancement.

You're considered resting when in another form, so I would allow anything that "rest" would allow you to recover from, no more. Poison that is still in your veins, or being in a state where you need medical attention to prevent the ramifications of a failed health roll, are not things that will go away if you just go lie down.

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Reciprocal Rest: "In conjunction with Non-Reciprocal Damage, these forms can even recover HP and recuperate from crippling injuries." Powers, p.75

Obviously, but I would assume that is subject to normal rules (and rolls) for recovery

[Refplace]

I have to side with The Matrix walker here on reicpocal rest.
You get to heal you also still tke damage from any ongoing effects.
On the other hand if the trigger is upon Death and you have Unkilllable wll that terminal condition canceled the ongoing effects.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

The content of the OP seems clear to me as he is concerned with the "dead" form healing!

So you want Reciprocal Rest.

So you want Unkillable 2 and the base form along with Regeneration with "Only while dead, -40%" Which will regenerate you up to full, but not heal further injuries that don't kill you.

On your Alternate Form, use (Non-Reciprocal Damage, Limited Enhancement, Aspected: One Way (-20%),+40%; Reciprocal Rest, +30%; Trigger, Death, -15%) and season to taste...

Thanks, the One Way thing on Non-Reciprocal Damage is a good idea!

So here's what I got so far:
Alternate Form, use (Non-Reciprocal Damage, Limited Enhancement, Aspected: One Way (-20%),+40%; Reciprocal Rest, +30%; Trigger, Death, -15%)
Regeneration (Extreme; Limited, Unkillable Only, -40%)
Unkillable 2 (Achilles' Heel, Not within an hour of switching back to base form, ??%; Mortal*, -20%)
*Mortal is a limitation of RPK's on MyGURPS. You still make death HT rolls, and die automatically at -5*HP, but you "get better".

I'm unsure which of these traits need to be at the character level (present in all forms), and which are just on the base form.

If the base form has the Unkillable Only Regen but the Alternate Form doesn't, does the base form heal to positive HP at 10 HP/sec, and then resume normal human healing, or does it heal at the same rate as whatever the Alternate Form heals at while it is active? As an example, if a character has a base racial template with normal human healing, and an AF that has Regen, and the AF has Reciprocal Rest, do the two forms heal at their own respective rates (I suspect so), or at the active form's rate?

Does Unkillable 2 need to be at the character level or just on the base form? I want the character to really die when they die in their transformed "upon death" form. They don't switch back to the base form upon death, then having Unkillable 2 and still not dying, right?

I'd want a penalized Will roll to leave the Alternate Form early. That's easy enough. Otherwise, staying in the form "costs fatigue", which I'll do via having Weakness (Fatigue Only) on that form. However, I'm not sure what the rarity of "being in upon-death mode" is for Weakness... Very Common?

Finally, I'd want the Unkillable 2 to fail (they can die) in the base form an hour or so after reverting back to it. That would be "Achilles' Heel, Not within an hour of switching back to base form". Not sure what the rarity of that is... I'd think Rare or Occasional, unless I'm downplaying it. This for a player and I'd rather not shaft them.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

The "lets your other body be resting/healing" is the enhancement, curing cyclic damage, immunity to being mortally wounded are both potent abilities that are not in any way suggested or implied in the enhancement.

Originally Posted by Refplace

I have to side with The Matrix walker here on reicpocal rest.
You get to heal you also still tke damage from any ongoing effects.

I checked with Kromm for clarification, this was what he said:

***

Q:
> On an Alternate Form with Reciprocal Rest and Non-Reciprocal Damage,
> I've been running it as equivalent to being put into a medically
> induced coma on life-support, that body doesn't take any further
> damage and it recovers over time.

Kromm: The rules sure do seem to imply that: The two modifiers spell out that
with both of them together, the dormant form satisfies its sleep needs,
regains FP and HP, and recovers from crippling. That sounds like every
aspect of recovery that matters.


Q:
> The counter argument was that a damaged body would continue to bleed
> to death, bleeding out and making death rolls on Reciprocal Rest and
> if it was poisoned it'd continue to suffer cyclical poison damage
> until death.

Kromm: That doesn't seem to be implied by the wording in POWERS. It has been a
while since I wrote that book and spoke with playtesters, but I believe
that my intent was for "dormant" to be literally that -- in suspended
animation -- and for Reciprocal Rest to take advantage of dormancy for
healing. It would be weird if adding an enhancement caused you to end
up worse off . . .

***

So it looks like my reading of the rules is correct, no negative consequences from taking the coupled enhancements of Reciprocal Rest and Non-Reciprocal Damage, treat the form as being in suspended animation or the equivalent of a medically induced coma, no death rolls, no cyclic poison damage, it's an enhancement not a limitation.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

So it looks like my reading of the rules is correct, no negative consequences from taking the coupled enhancements of Reciprocal Rest and Non-Reciprocal Damage, treat the form as being in suspended animation or the equivalent of a medically induced coma, no death rolls, no cyclic poison damage, it's an enhancement not a limitation.

I think it was convenient of you leaving out the most cogent point, the avoiding the results of a failed death check.

Even if the rules allow it, I wouldn't. I'd "rule zero it" out. What is the point of Unkillable when you can just swap into a healthy body cheaper?

And the "It's not a limitation" statement makes no sense, there is no limitation implied. "Doesn't bring you back from the dead" is not a limitation for Shapeshifting.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

I think it was convenient of you leaving out the most cogent point, the avoiding the results of a failed death check.

How was that the most cogent point?

I didn't think to bring it up because it didn't register with me as being part of the issue.

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

And the "It's not a limitation" statement makes no sense, there is no limitation implied. "Doesn't bring you back from the dead" is not a limitation for Shapeshifting.

Death is something which happens over time, it's not an instantaneous type of thing unless we're talking massive brain destroying damage, so shifting because you failed a roll so you can get medical treatment before you're truly dead is something which GURPS models, see Resuscitation B425 and Bio-Tech p.123-.

Inigo Montoya: He's dead. He can't talk.
Miracle Max: Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do.
Inigo Montoya: What's that?
Miracle Max: Go through his clothes and look for loose change.

Most everyone who dies of violent causes these days does so because they cannot be gotten to immediate life-support equipment and a surgical table quickly enough to keep death from becoming permanent, and we're only at TL8.

A typical staple of fiction in higher TLs is the ability to put someone into stasis upon death, in order to get the body to medical care before death becomes permanent.

Even simple CPR today can keep death from becoming permanent simply by staving off significant anoxic brain injury while the dead body is transported to medical care where a defibrillator and assorted other life-support equipment can be brought online while further medical care is provided.

See present day real life examples where people are revived hours after being dead due to well timed CPR, though again anoxic brain injury is always a risk if the body isn't chilled quickly enough through induced therapeutic hypothermia in order to prevent brain damage until the damage starts being mitigated.