Resolving move and attack on DWA & Feints

[Hide]

Hey there,

As you should already know, using a shield for a slam does not yield penalties or caps your skill at 9. So I was wondering about dual weapon attacks combined with shields (i.e Sword & Shield).

From my perspective, dual weapon attack is divided in 2 sections (the first strike and the second strike), as you roll sepparately for them.

(Question #1)

A shield rush in the first section, is the part in which you actually move and attack. If the first part is successful, at this point you already clashed into you target and lost the momentum/impulse (so you are no longer moving to make your second attack); thus the second half should be a regular sword strike (not capped). What do you think?

If the slam did not hit, well, it is clear to me that you lose the second attack.

(Question #2)

You got extra attack and the perk acrobatic feints.

So, you run and make the acrobatic feint. You are not attacking but you are moving... acrobatics is designed for stunts (so it should not be penalized for moving and making the acrobatic feint at the last momment during your move). After you sucessfully feint, you activate the extra attack and deal the blow with the bonuses. How is this?

Thanks for your insight,
- Hide

[Rupert]

The way I see it, the shield slam isn't capped, but the sword attack would be. Either you attack with the sword first and you're running, or you attack right after the slam and you're not in the best stance, etc. In neither case do you lose the sword attack unless something happens to force that loss - even if you miss with the slam you could still hit with the sword as you go by.

As for the Acrobatic feint, the follow-up would still be capped by the move-and-attack, but the defender's defence would be lowered by the feint. Not seeing any problem here.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Hide

(Question #1)

What do you think?

When did you stop doing a Move and Attack?

Therefore, you're still doing a Move and Attack, even if you aren't actually moving anymore.

(Question #2)

... acrobatics is designed for stunts (so it should not be penalized for moving and making the acrobatic feint at the last momment during your move).

Of course it should, a Feint is still an Attack. One being made during the turn you are making a Move and Attack Maneuver.

After you sucessfully feint, you activate the extra attack and deal the blow with the bonuses. How is this?

If the blow is on the next turn, then you're performing a different Maneuver. If you perform another Move and Attack (for whatever reason) the attack is capped.

If the blow is on the same turn (Extra Attack, etc) and thus under the effects of the Move and Attack Maneuver, well...

[Anaraxes]

Q1:
DWA gets its bonuses because it's a coordinated attack using both weapons together. As the description says, "you can strike with two hands at once". It's not just a generic "attack twice in a round" action.

Certainly, you resolve the attacks one at a time, but that's simply for convenience. (Otherwise, you'd have to roll six dice, in two different-colored sets, to make it a "true simultaneous attack". The meta procedure for resolving mechanics is not a exact mirror of the simulated physical activity.)

It's also not the case that you move in part of your turn and then stand still and attack. Again, that's just resolution on a map. You might be continuously moving, with no inexplicable pause every five yards. Again, the real-world motion of game pieces is not the simulated reality. The map and movement rules are just an aid for tracking and visualization.

Slams are exempted from the Move and Attack penalty because moving rapidly into someone is generally the whole point, and doing so with a shield isn't going to be worse for the slammer. The B372 "shield rush" isn't the kind where you're just fighting and you punch someone with your really big, heavy, 3-foot fist load.

I'm not sure I'd allow combining a slam with a normal melee attack in the first place, but I suppose someone might undertake some esoteric training to learn to stab someone with a dagger while tackling them while also not falling on their own blade. (Maybe that calls for a Special Exercises Perk.) I'd still apply the Move and Attack penalties to the regular weapon attack.

Q2:
I'd have no problem with using an Acrobatic Feint to benefit an Extra Attack. That's a routine use of a Feint. The fact that Acrobatics implies motion doesn't imply anything special, though. You're always moving in combat (again, not standing stock still like your figure on the map while someone hits you). If the character moves more than a Step, it suffers those penalties to its attacks. The Acrobatic Feint Perk is paying for the fact that your acrobatic feinting is somehow cinematically properly integrated with your stance, footwork, and blow mechanics (which is the sort of thing that you can't optimize when you've trying to actually go somewhere, rather than fight optimally). RAW is fine as it is in this case.

(If you want a rationale, when you're moving a long distance, that's more predictable than using that same amount of time and motion to do your tricksy Feinting moves, rather than just one little fillip at the end of your straight-line charge. There's no reason that an Acrobatics roll can be used to automatically cancel movement penalties for other activities by moving more. Watch some Olympic gymnastics routines on YouTube, and notice how when they need their speed for some big flip maneuver, most of that artistic grace and dancing stuff goes out the window as they set up in a corner and run for a much more purely athletic feat. If they could do both at the same time, they would. Significant translational motion does impede your ability to do arbitrary unrelated Acrobatics at the same time.)

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

I'm not sure I'd allow combining a slam with a normal melee attack in the first place, but I suppose someone might undertake some esoteric training to learn to stab someone with a dagger while tackling them while also not falling on their own blade. (Maybe that calls for a Special Exercises Perk.) I'd still apply the Move and Attack penalties to the regular weapon attack.

I would, at least with a small blade (Small Knife or Dagger in GURPS terms).

This is a classic maneuver, called the prison yard rush (for reasons I hope are fairly obvious). The blade is held close to the body in the rear hand in hopes of concealing it and in the collision the blade is thrust forward, while the target is hopefully distracted by the slam (the -1 to defenses).

I wouldn't exempt the knife attack from the 9 maximum skill though, just because the slam is exempted.

[chandley]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I would, at least with a small blade (Small Knife or Dagger in GURPS terms).

This is a classic maneuver, called the prison yard rush (for reasons I hope are fairly obvious). The blade is held close to the body in the rear hand in hopes of concealing it and in the collision the blade is thrust forward, while the target is hopefully distracted by the slam (the -1 to defenses).

I wouldn't exempt the knife attack from the 9 maximum skill though, just because the slam is exempted.

Before I continue, I think Bruno is correct for RAW.

I would allow, however, anyone to choose to lead with their weapon in a slam, including with the stabbing point of a impaling weapon, if they like. But remember, in a shield rush, _the shield takes slam damage_. So in this instance the weapon would too. I would uncap the weapon skill in this instance.

In the prison yard rush, the weapon isn't expected to make it through the attack anyway, and the added damage from velocity helps reach something vital. Or if you want to charge with a spear-as-lance without a horse, go for it, lances were fairly disposable too.

[Plane]

Chandley it sounds like in the prison yard rush it would be the initial slam which takes all the momentum and slows the attacker down and then the rear arm is thrust forward.

Martial Arts has rules for taking slam damage to your weapon but I think that's with it held across the body, like cross-checking with a hockey stick, more cutting than stabbing.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I would, at least with a small blade (Small Knife or Dagger in GURPS terms).

This is a classic maneuver, called the prison yard rush (for reasons I hope are fairly obvious). The blade is held close to the body in the rear hand in hopes of concealing it and in the collision the blade is thrust forward, while the target is hopefully distracted by the slam (the -1 to defenses).

I wouldn't exempt the knife attack from the 9 maximum skill though, just because the slam is exempted.

PYR could also take place over 2 seconds, if a slam happens to knock the opponent down then posture penalties might give better than -1 on the next turn, or if you inflicted DX penalties from Shock that could also lower defenses.

[Bruno]

The "classic" version is basically simultaneously, it's specifically about stabbing the upright target as you go body-to-body. It conceals the attack a bit from the victim, and importantly it helps conceal the weapon from guards or the victims allies until you're done.

Attacking the victim when they're down on the ground is different - certainly something that might be done, it's tactically quite sound, but not the same.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by Bruno

This is a classic maneuver, called the prison yard rush (for reasons I hope are fairly obvious). The blade is held close to the body in the rear hand in hopes of concealing it and in the collision the blade is thrust forward, while the target is hopefully distracted by the slam (the -1 to defenses).

This I think I would model as an All-out attack instead. Then you can AOA:double for a slam + attack at no skill penalty. (and can still move half speed forward).
If stabbing is the main goal it seems unlikely that you would do it at max skill:9 when you could do it unpenalized.

[edit] Btw. remember there is also a -4 penalty to melee skill. I know we tend to focus on the skill cap of 9, and that makes sense for most action games and warriors. But most "random muggers" or "prison stabbers" are very unlikely to have dagger skill of 13+. Most proably have it at Skill:10 to 12. and so the -4 penalty leaves you at a skill 6 to 8. [/edit]

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I would, at least with a small blade (Small Knife or Dagger in GURPS terms).

I wouldn't even limit it to a dagger.


But yeah, the PYR sounds more like Maz says, an AOA(Double) with a half move.