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Old 09-24-2018, 12:12 PM   #11
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Polearm charge against a bowman

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Originally Posted by platimus View Post
The more I think about this, the more I'm Ok with it. A polearm charger would usually start his turn less than 30 feet away from the archer he would charge. That's not a lot of time for the archer to draw his bow and aim at the guy running toward him with a long pointy stick. The time he spent drawing and aiming would certainly make him an easier target for the charge attack.

Compared with the alternatives, I'm jim-dandy with the polearm charge attack rule.
I see a justified realism quibble (from whoever may notice & care) that the only difference between a pole user charging an archer, and a sword user charging an archer, is the time it takes the sword user to run the difference in reach between the sword and the polearm - i.e. hardly anything. Yet the difference is the rules makes all the difference between whether a higher-DX archer gets to get an arrow off first or not.

I think I'd house-rule a pole charge doesn't get to go first if the archer has higher DX, as the reach of the missile is longer than the pole, and otherwise the difference in effect between sword and spear doesn't make much sense.
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Old 09-24-2018, 01:45 PM   #12
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Attacking during movement.

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
The system needs a general interrupt movement procedure to handle this and invisible wizard hitting with his staff somebody who's running past him, etc.
Hi hcobb, everyone.
In my campaign, I allow you to attack during movement at -6 DX. If you do so your action is used up.

I would consider this an optional rule, it requires people to remember that 'figure A has attacked, but not yet moved' sort of thing. The -6 DX penalty ensures that it does not happen often.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 09-24-2018, 02:35 PM   #13
Helborn
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Default Re: Polearm charge against a bowman

I think I like the idea of moving the archer last attack in with the pole weapon charge. That way even if an archer is attacked by a melee weapon he gets that last arrow off before the melee attack. Needs to be tested, though.
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Old 09-24-2018, 03:00 PM   #14
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Default Re: Polearm charge against a bowman

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
I see a justified realism quibble (from whoever may notice & care) that the only difference between a pole user charging an archer, and a sword user charging an archer, is the time it takes the sword user to run the difference in reach between the sword and the polearm - i.e. hardly anything. Yet the difference is the rules makes all the difference between whether a higher-DX archer gets to get an arrow off first or not.
I disagree about the difference between the sword charger and the polearm charger. Here's why. The polearm is held out in front of the polearm charger. As you pointed out, the polearm has greater reach. It also doesn't have to be swung. The sword charger will have to rear-back the sword and then bring it to bear. The polearm doesn't have to do this. Just hold the pointy end out and brace it as it meets its mark. This all from a realism perspective.

If the polearm charge preempts a sword charge or normal sword attack, why shouldn't it preempt a bow attack? It takes longer to draw a bow string, aim, and shoot than it does to swing a sword, despite what Legolas would have you believe.

Last edited by platimus; 09-24-2018 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 09-24-2018, 03:04 PM   #15
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: Polearm charge against a bowman

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Originally Posted by Helborn View Post
I think I like the idea of moving the archer last attack in with the pole weapon charge. That way even if an archer is attacked by a melee weapon he gets that last arrow off before the melee attack. Needs to be tested, though.
If you ignore the polearm, this is already accounted for by ordering movement and actions according the highest adjDX down to lowest adjDX. If you think about it, it takes longer to draw a bow, aim, and shoot than it does to swing a sword.
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Old 09-24-2018, 05:54 PM   #16
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Default Re: Polearm charge against a bowman

The only alternative to the very simple "resolve polearm charges first" rule that seems logical and not too complicated would be this:
Quote:
Figures attack in the order of their adjusted DX, highest first. Ties are resolved each turn by a die roll. Figures charging with polearms add 6 to their adjDX ONLY for the purpose of attack order; NOT on the attack itself.
Those wishing to give archers a bump (which doesn't seem warranted, realistic, or fair) could do so by creating a similar clause to the one in bold with a bonus of 1 to 3.
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Old 09-24-2018, 08:40 PM   #17
Helborn
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Default Re: Polearm charge against a bowman

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Originally Posted by platimus View Post
If you ignore the polearm, this is already accounted for by ordering movement and actions according the highest adjDX down to lowest adjDX. If you think about it, it takes longer to draw a bow, aim, and shoot than it does to swing a sword.
I disagree. I have spent time shooting both arrows and guns. We're not talking about aiming at a figure in the distance, we're talking about a last shot when you're being charged. There's very little aiming that is required - the figure is coming in a straight line towards you. It's a grab and pull. It's actually faster than swinging a sword (also faster than a polearm charge). So, I don't see a problem with moving it in with the polearms
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Old 09-24-2018, 09:07 PM   #18
platimus
 
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Default Re: Polearm charge against a bowman

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Originally Posted by Helborn View Post
I disagree. I have spent time shooting both arrows and guns. We're not talking about aiming at a figure in the distance, we're talking about a last shot when you're being charged. There's very little aiming that is required - the figure is coming in a straight line towards you. It's a grab and pull. It's actually faster than swinging a sword (also faster than a polearm charge). So, I don't see a problem with moving it in with the polearms
You already get that "last shot" according to the rules. I agree with that. What we seem to disagree about is when it occurs - before or after the polearm charge.

==============
Melee p. 7 OPTIONS FOR ENGAGED FIGURES
(l)ONE-LAST-SHOT MISSILE ATTACK
If the figure had a missile weapon ready before it was engaged, it may get off one last shot. (This option reflects the fact that you can almost always release an arrow at a charging enemy.)
==============

I have spent time shooting bows and guns and swinging things at people too. You KNOW it takes longer to pull a bow string back than it does to swing a sword. Yet you are fine with the polearm charge happening before all other attacks but the bow. Doesn't make sense. It's your game though. Play it how you like.

Last edited by platimus; 09-24-2018 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 09-25-2018, 01:50 AM   #19
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Polearm charge against a bowman

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Originally Posted by platimus View Post
I disagree about the difference between the sword charger and the polearm charger. Here's why. The polearm is held out in front of the polearm charger. As you pointed out, the polearm has greater reach. It also doesn't have to be swung. The sword charger will have to rear-back the sword and then bring it to bear. The polearm doesn't have to do this. Just hold the pointy end out and brace it as it meets its mark. This all from a realism perspective.
All right... I'll give you another fraction of a second consideration for that, but...


Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
If the polearm charge preempts a sword charge or normal sword attack, why shouldn't it preempt a bow attack? It takes longer to draw a bow string, aim, and shoot than it does to swing a sword, despite what Legolas would have you believe.
(It seems to me that) it's not about time, it's about length.

The reason (it has always seemed to me) that it makes sense for polearms to go before shorter melee weapons is about simple geometry: the polearm is considerably longer, and so there is a chance that the polearm can reach the closest target it is moving towards, before that target can reach the polearm user, because the weapon reach is longer.

Moreover, the baseline sequence in TFT is done by adjDX. For archers who are not in charge attacks, their arrows fly and hit in adjDX sequence like other actions do. The polearm-charges-go-first rule is an exception to that based on superior reach, and it doesn't apply to polearms receiving a charge because the receiving polearm also has long reach. Well, a missile weapon has even more reach than a polearm, so the reach of the polearm would barely help change the time consideration in that case. If anything, I'd tend to think last shot arrows would go fist, for the same reason polearms do - due to reach. And yet, I was just suggesting that the polearm exception probably logically shouldn't apply to last-shot arrows against them.

But yeah, we should all do what we want to, assuming we can agree with the people we are playing with (hopefully before the issue comes up in play). Default would be as-written, which ya says the charging & charge-receiving polearms all go before everything else.
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Old 09-25-2018, 06:35 AM   #20
hcobb
 
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Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Polearm charge against a bowman

Historically getting charged with polearms was the biggest tactical concern of archers. Hence fortifications like castle walls or the stakes driven into the ground at Agincourt.

Scenario 1: Bayonet charge down a rocky heavily wooded hill with limited visibility against advancing muzzle loading rifles. (July 2nd, 1863)

Scenario 2: Bayonet charge up a clear hill with unlimited visibility against prepared muzzle loading rifles. (July 3rd, 1863)
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Last edited by hcobb; 09-25-2018 at 06:59 AM.
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