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Old 09-21-2018, 09:52 AM   #81
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
The Leader 50 A1 in .50 BMG seems to be commercially available by now.

It's about the OAL of a typical battle rifle and just a couple of inches longer than an M16 and it weighs about 21-22 lbs. fully loaded.

Depending on how well the recoil is managed compared to heavier .50 BMG rifles, it certainly looks like an ideal weapon for a monster hunting gunslinger who wants a shoulder weapon with some real authority.
wow. That's the Bushmaster M17S all growed up.
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Old 09-21-2018, 11:27 AM   #82
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Default Re: Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]

You know, GURPS doesn't do firearms malfunctions very well. Without delving greatly into that can of worms, I would only note that a lot of these little known custom shops create malfunction ridden junk. Anyone stating up esoteric stuff like this should vastly increase the malfunction rate. There are existing guns from major established manufacturers that should have a much lower malfunction rate as well, but that is an argument for another thread.
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:45 PM   #83
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Default Re: Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]

Note that Malf. 16 means that a semi-auto firing three shots per attack will malfunction every ~65 shots on average. At RoF 10 that increases to about once every 216 shots.

At the default Malf. 17 for a TL6+ firearm these rates are ~1 in 160 and 1 in 540.

Thus if you use the malfunction rules at all you're making all firearms very unreliable. The rules as written are too punitive, rather than too generous, even for quite unreliable weapons.

I only use them for weapons rated at malf.16 or worse, and rule that 17-18 remain a critical failure rather than being malfunctions. If your critical failure chance drops to 16 or less, you can crit fail and have a malfunction at the same time (lucky you).
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Old 12-12-2018, 03:09 AM   #84
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Default Modern Shotguns for Monster Hunters

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In the world of shotguns with detachable box magazines this is relatively new....

http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/590m-mag-fed/

I do think the 20 round double column magazine looks like a small loaf of bread and isn't likely to fit your LBV very well. Still, if you want to maximize boom-power this might be a serious candidate.
On the subject of fancy new shotgun models suitable for monster hunters, I'll be trying to stat the Mossberg 590M Mag Fed Pump Action, Mossberg 590 Shockwave, Remington 870 TAC-14 DM, Kel-Tech KSG (and variants), Akdal MKA 1919 Match and Saiga-derived weapons such as the Molot Vepr-12 and Saiga 12, especially in configurations like those offered by Lone Star Armory, Saiga gallery and Vepr gallery.

I'm basically looking for good short-barreled tactical shotguns for the Bulk -4 or Bulk -4* entry gun size range, i.e. a compact shotgun that may be carried alongside another primary weapon, as well as a larger, higher-capacity tactical shotgun for the Bulk -5 main weapon role.

Things I'm considering include:
  • How large and heavy does a magazine have to be before it gives a -1 Bulk penalty? I'd certainly give it for the largest optional 20-rd 12G magazines of the Mossberg 590M, but what about 6-rd, 8-rd, 10-rd or 15-rd detachable 12G magazines?
  • Do high-quality recoil pads and stocks with recoil-mitigation devices do anything, in game terms? I think that controllability and follow-up shots should suffer when using a basic stock (let alone a flimsy folding one) compared to a more expensive and heavier stock designed to tame the recoil, which in game terms might justify lower ST and Rcl. Certainly it wouldn't break anything to allow spending about 30-50% of the base price of a shotgun on a fancy stock to reduce Rcl when firing slugs from 5 to 4 for typical 12G pumps and/or reducing MinST by 1 (to a minimum determined by the weight of the weapon).
  • The Shockwave and Raptor grips are a trendy idea that basically exist because of US gun laws. Without stocks, shotguns are legally not shotguns and bound by other laws. The purpose of the Shockwave and Raptor grips is to be almost as good as a proper stock, but still count legally as a 'pistol grip'. What should the game effects of this be? Does anyone have experience with them? Are they only slightly worse than regular stocks or only slightly better than regular pistol grips, i.e. which stats should they be closer to?
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Last edited by Icelander; 12-12-2018 at 04:03 AM.
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Old 12-12-2018, 11:34 AM   #85
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Default Re: Modern Shotguns for Monster Hunters

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[*]How large and heavy does a magazine have to be before it gives a -1 Bulk penalty? I'd certainly give it for the largest optional 20-rd 12G magazines of the Mossberg 590M, but what about 6-rd, 8-rd, 10-rd or 15-rd detachable 12G magazines?
The big issue is often size, does the magazine project down far enough to be in the way if you are firing from behind cover, or on the ground. Is it in the way when it is slung on your back?

The following link goes to a YouTube Channel where they discuss, and compare, WW I firearms in a simple format. It may give you some insights.

https://www.youtube.com/candrsenal
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Old 12-12-2018, 04:09 PM   #86
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Default Re: Modern Shotguns for Monster Hunters

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The big issue is often size, does the magazine project down far enough to be in the way if you are firing from behind cover, or on the ground. Is it in the way when it is slung on your back?
For the vast majority of weapons with a detachable magazine designed to be the primary armament for a soldier, SWAT team member or other tactical shooter, the answer to that is 'yes'.

Full-size 30-rd AR-15 type magazines are noticeably more of a hassle when prone than shorter magazines, but the difference is not enough, in GURPS terms, to rate a full extra point of Bulk penalty. A 100-rd Beta Mag C-MAG drum, however, will give an extra -1 Bulk to the rifle or carbine it is loaded in.

I'm just trying to decide at what point a detachable magazine with 12G shotgun rounds becomes bulky enough to justify a -1 Bulk penalty relative to a shotgun with a lower capacity magazine. The 10-rd magazines are roughly an inch longer than a 30-rd USGI 5.56x45mm magazine (8" vs. 7"), the 15-rd 12G magazine is 50% longer than that (10.375") and the 20-rd one is as long as the SureFire 100-rd 5.56x45mm magazines (12.625"). These are double-stack 12G magazines, so they are thick as well.

This puts the 20-rd 12G magazine squarely in the -1 Bulk category, but doesn't help me determine at what length and bulk of magazine I should put the breakpoint. Avoiding an extra -1 Bulk is likely to be a priority for players who use shotguns, except perhaps in very special circumstances, where they might carry a large magazine reload much as a rifleman might carry one drum or high-capacity extended magazine for breaking contact.

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Originally Posted by adm View Post
The following link goes to a YouTube Channel where they discuss, and compare, WW I firearms in a simple format. It may give you some insights.

https://www.youtube.com/candrsenal
Thanks.
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Old 12-13-2018, 03:47 AM   #87
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Default Accurized Shotgun

Real-world shotguns can get very expensive, largely due to craftsmanship, fashion, finish, collectability and things like balance and personal fit. An English double custom-made for a shooter is noted as being one way to acquire Weapon Bond. I'd also argue that Fine (Balanced) is suitable for fancy double shotguns, even more than Fine (Accurate).

In GURPS terms, however, Fine (Accurate) firearms have no downsides and substantially increase the tactical utility of weapons. If at all possible, PCs tend to want all their weapons to be custom-modified for Fine (Reliable) and Fine (Accurate), especially if the basic Cost is fairly modest and such modifications are thus game-mechanically cheap.

I don't want to allow this unless such modifications are available in real life and am totally prepared to charge higher prices, especially if I can find a real custom shop selling such firearms for prices substantially higher than GURPS rules would charge.*

What real-world gunsmithing modifications can justify Fine (Accurate) for a shotgun?

Does any real custom tactical shotgun qualify?

If so, can anyone suggest manufacturers and models?

If not, what modifications would an armourer personally have to make to his shotgun to justify Fine (Accurate)?

I can imagine trigger work and a good stock and grip, but many of the things that are done with rifles to accurize them don't seem applicable to shotguns.

Does the barrel make any difference to shotgun Acc, enough for there to be premium match barrels? Free-floating the barrel would not seem to be likely to yield much of a benefit....

Are Fine (Accurate) shotguns realistic and if they are, what kind of descriptive data should I give on exactly how they are made more accurate with both shot and slugs?

To take a concrete example, would Nighthawk Custom Overseer (customized Remington 870) rate Fine (Accurate)?

*PCs wanting lower prices for custom guns can take high Armoury (Smallarms) skill and arrange to have access to a workshop.
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Last edited by Icelander; 12-13-2018 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 12-15-2018, 11:36 AM   #88
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Default Re: Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]

When looking at things like shotguns used by Trap shooters, the changes seem to be mostly about individual fitting. They do tend to have things like trigger work, changing of sights and change to a special stock, but that is about it.

Thus the equipment bond perk is likely a more appropriate way to model the effect.
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Old 12-16-2018, 08:35 AM   #89
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Default Re: Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]

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When looking at things like shotguns used by Trap shooters, the changes seem to be mostly about individual fitting. They do tend to have things like trigger work, changing of sights and change to a special stock, but that is about it.

Thus the equipment bond perk is likely a more appropriate way to model the effect.
I agree that a lot of shotgun modifications are best represented by Weapon Bond, but does that mean that Fine (Accurate) does not realistically exist for shotguns?
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Old 12-16-2018, 04:08 PM   #90
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Default Shotgun Shell Volume and Large Slugs in 2.75" Shells

Assuming that PCs want to use 12G shotgun slugs with a very large cavity, to fit various exotic anti-supernatural menace substances in, a 1 oz. hollow-cavity slug might be almost as long as a more solid 1.5 oz. slug.

What does that do to the remaining space for powder in a 2.75" shell?

Is the velocity of commercial slug ammunition close to the theoretical maximum of the performance you can get at the size and pressure of 2.75" 12G shotgun shells or could you load the shells with more powder, even with a projectile the size of a 1 3/8 oz. slug?

In other words, would using large hollow-cavity slugs inevitably mean losing velocity due to powder space concerns or are typical shotgun shells larger than they need to be for modern powders anyway, with lack of demand for hard-recoiling loads the reason shells aren't often packed to full capacity with powder and projectile?
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