Poll: Hit mechanics

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Hmmmmm.... that's an excellent point, and further enhances the use of high skill levels. It might be a little complicated for a player to remember HT + DR (since HT is on his sheet and HT + DR requires a bit of mental arithmetic, albeit very simple arithmetic), but I see this as further reason for using 2 over 3. I still prefer 1, though. It seems simple, straightforward, and easily modeled by a basic Innate Attack.

Yes, but it's also completely stumped by anyone with DR6+, which is almost everyone in the games I've been in (which are usually modern or ultra-tech games, mind you; I don't usually do fantasy).

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Langy

Yes, but it's also completely stumped by anyone with DR6+, which is almost everyone in the games I've been in (which are usually modern or ultra-tech games, mind you; I don't usually do fantasy).

DR 6+ is easy enough to get in Fantasy games too, especially if you throw in enchanted armor.

[Rasputin]

One, then Three then Two. If you want some way around DR as #2 is trying (since it is nerfed), take Armor Divisor or Cosmic or something.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Langy

Yes, but it's also completely stumped by anyone with DR6+, which is almost everyone in the games I've been in (which are usually modern or ultra-tech games, mind you; I don't usually do fantasy).

Well, we don't know what the intention of these abilities are. Perhaps being stumped by a guy in plate is perfectly fine for this ability. If it's meant to be minor (like a 1 die innate attack) or expandable, then this might not be an issue, anymore than it's an issue that someone with a knife is "completely stumped" by someone in DR 6 (we can still go after hit locations, so presumably we can target chinks, or less well-protected areas). On the other hand, maybe the fact that it can be stumped by armor is a real issue. Maybe this is meant to be a workhorse ability, in which case your point is very valid.

(Well, you're point is valid in any case, precisely because we don't know the conditions Bruno is looking at, and thus it's important to note what the impact of her choice will be).

I favor 1 because, all things being equal, I'm a big believer in KISS: Any GURPS player easily grasps the concept of a 1d6 innate attack. That's simple. Our "affliction that deals damage" is stranger and going to have unintended consequences. If we must go with an affliction, 2 is superior to 3 because it works more like we'd expect afflictions to, the only "strangeness" is that it deals damage, rather than some kind of effect.

[mlangsdorf]

Don't you mean 3 (roll damage, apply DR) is better than 2 (apply DR as an HT bonus, ignore DR on the hit)? Version 2 is really strange to me, with odd effects like a 1d attack potentially penetrating DR8 armor on a unlucky but unexceptional roll.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I favor 1 because, all things being equal, I'm a big believer in KISS: Any GURPS player easily grasps the concept of a 1d6 innate attack. That's simple.

This is my reasoning as well. Having more than one way to handle direct hits will confuse folks, especially newbies. And we kind of need newbies.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Don't you mean 3 (roll damage, apply DR) is better than 2 (apply DR as an HT bonus, ignore DR on the hit)? Version 2 is really strange to me, with odd effects like a 1d attack potentially penetrating DR8 armor on a unlucky but unexceptional roll.

Afflictions always work by applying DR atop your HT (or Will or whatever) when you attempt to resist. Bruno's clearly using Affliction mechanics in 2, except that they deal 1d6 damage instead of stunning you. Option 3 is a weird combination of Affliction and Innate attack, where you roll to resist, but you don't apply DR, except you do, but only to the damage stage.

All things considered, to me, 2 looks simpler (more like the base rules with the single exception of the fact that it's an affliction that deals damage) than 3 (which is like an affliction except for two exceptions: it ignores DR and deals damage, but thereafter applies DR to that damage).

[Kuroshima]

Let's stick with basic set armor ok? (Low Tech makes it worse by allowing more armor variety and higher DRs, but the prices are much higher). Mail is relatively cheap, and provides DR 4/2*.

Statistical results by Anydice

Let's consider the 3 options:

1.- If the attacker makes his Innate Attack (or whatever he's using to hit) roll, the target gets to roll active defense (Dodge, unless it's taken with Blockable, this is weird, I though that it could be blocked by default. Does this mean that Captain America can't block Cyclops' eyebolts?). The attacker can try to get around it is a ranged feint or a prediction shot. If it hits, it must deal with DR, so it does 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2, average 0.5 damage. However, that's with the attacker always hitting, and the defender never making a defense roll. In the real world, it's probably skill 14 to hit, and dodge of 9, for a total expected damage of 0.5*0.9074*.625=0.2835625. Now, the target can do little to improve his defenses (Dodge is expensive) while the attacker can actually boost his attack easily (Skill is cheap) meaning that eventually, he would overpower the target's dodge with Prediction Shots. Ranged Feints will also send defenses down real fast.

2.- It's easy for the character to have HT 11 and Fit, and with DR4 armor, that bumps it to 16 (no need for more), where the rule of 16 makes it so you never get 50%, since ties go to the defender (actual change is capped at 45.36%). Now, considering that you get to add hit location penalties, range penalties, etc etc, you will be often facing higher resistance than attack. In the example above, at effective skill 14 vs effective resistance 16, the chances of it not being resisted are 27.94%. Expected damage: 3.5*.2794=0.9779

3.- Same conditions as above, resistance is overcome 63.69%, but expected damage if it hits is 0.5, as in the first case. This leads to a total expected damage of 0.31845.

Things would quickly change if instead of 1d burning, you were doing more, like 4d burning. In this case, expected damage against DR 4 mail would be 10, while ignoring armor would give you an expected damage of 14. Repeating the same assumptions as above

1.- Expected Damage: 4.537
2.- Expected Damage: 3.9116
3.- Expected Damage: 6.369

The problem with 2, is that it doesn't scale well. Adding damage helps a lot penetrating DR, but using method 2, it does not, and you quickly hit a hard cap on your effectiveness.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

2 is good for modeling something like a high RoF attack of tendrils which get around past armor gaps, things like the 1pt attacks we shouldn't be modeling with area attack and RoF 300.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Langy

True - but that's not nearly as bad as 'completely unable to deal damage ever', which is what happens if the opponent has DR6+ in either of the other two examples.

Options 2 and 3 let you choose hit locations, apparently for free, so the 1d6 can be sent into the eyeslits or chinks, used to destroy fasteners, melt antennas, ignite carried ammo, and generally make life miserable if not end it.