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Old 08-25-2019, 11:32 PM   #21
Whitewings
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Default Re: Ultra-Tech and Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
The tiny distortions in metal have nothing to do with EM apart from the root cause. They're just tiny random shape metal effects.
That's not helping your case. Almost nothing in a living body is considered "metal" either by scientists or by occultists.
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Old 08-25-2019, 11:40 PM   #22
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Ultra-Tech and Magic

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Originally Posted by Whitewings View Post
That's not helping your case. Almost nothing in a living body is considered "metal" either by scientists or by occultists.
Which helps explain how humans can keep living.
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Old 08-26-2019, 08:39 AM   #23
maximara
 
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Default Re: Ultra-Tech and Magic

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Originally Posted by Whitewings View Post
That's not helping your case. Almost nothing in a living body is considered "metal" either by scientists or by occultists.
WRONG.

Anyone who knows anything about the periodic table can show that is nonsense. "In physics, a metal is generally regarded as any substance capable of conducting electricity at a temperature of absolute zero." (Yonezawa, F (2017). Physics of Metal-Nonmetal Transitions. Amsterdam: IOS Press. p. 257) Chemists put arsenic and antimony in the Metalloid category while astrophysics call all chemical elements that are not hydrogen and helium "metals" Last time I checked, Physicists, Chemists, and Astrophysicists were scientists.

If we trim the list provided in the Our brain and metals page to the chemical definition we get this:

Macro metals:
Calcium (Ca)
Magnesium (Mg)
Sodium (Na)
Potassium (K)

Micro metals:
Iron (Fe)
Copper (Cu)
Manganese (Mn)
Zinc (Zn)
Selenium (Se)
Cobalt (Co)
Molybdenum (Mo)
Chromium (Cr)

So yes the human body has metals. In fact that is why Lead (Pb) is so dangerous. The body mistakes it for other vital metals and uses it instead.

As far as the occultists are concerned that is even more varied: "The heat of the blood is the vantage ground of the Ego, and the Lucifer Spirits from Mars aid in maintaining this heat by dissolving iron, a Mars metal, in our blood to attract oxygen, a solar element." (OCCULT PRINCIPLES OF HEALTH AND HEALING)

Last edited by maximara; 08-26-2019 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 08-26-2019, 09:11 AM   #24
Whitewings
 
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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
WRONG.

Anyone who knows anything about the periodic table can show that is nonsense. "In physics, a metal is generally regarded as any substance capable of conducting electricity at a temperature of absolute zero." (Yonezawa, F (2017). Physics of Metal-Nonmetal Transitions. Amsterdam: IOS Press. p. 257) Chemists put arsenic and antimony in the Metalloid category while astrophysics call all chemical elements that are not hydrogen and helium "metals" Last time I checked, Physicists, Chemists, and Astrophysics were scientists.

If we trim the list provided in the Our brain and metals page to the chemical definition we get this:

Macro metals:
Calcium (Ca)
Magnesium (Mg)
Sodium (Na)
Potassium (K)

Micro metals:
Iron (Fe)
Copper (Cu)
Manganese (Mn)
Zinc (Zn)
Selenium (Se)
Cobalt (Co)
Molybdenum (Mo)
Chromium (Cr)

So yes the human body has metals. In fact that is why Lead (Pb) is so dangerous. The body mistakes it for other vital metals and uses it instead.
Of course the human body contains metals. I wasn't thinking in terms of elemental composition, but molecular composition. Calcium phosphate, for example, though it contains calcium, is not a metal in any common usage of that term that I've ever come across.
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Old 08-26-2019, 10:00 AM   #25
lwcamp
 
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Default Re: Ultra-Tech and Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
WRONG.

Anyone who knows anything about the periodic table can show that is nonsense. "In physics, a metal is generally regarded as any substance capable of conducting electricity at a temperature of absolute zero." (Yonezawa, F (2017). Physics of Metal-Nonmetal Transitions. Amsterdam: IOS Press. p. 257) Chemists put arsenic and antimony in the Metalloid category while astrophysics call all chemical elements that are not hydrogen and helium "metals" Last time I checked, Physicists, Chemists, and Astrophysicists were scientists.

If we trim the list provided in the Our brain and metals page to the chemical definition we get this:

Macro metals:
Calcium (Ca)
Magnesium (Mg)
Sodium (Na)
Potassium (K)

Micro metals:
Iron (Fe)
Copper (Cu)
Manganese (Mn)
Zinc (Zn)
Selenium (Se)
Cobalt (Co)
Molybdenum (Mo)
Chromium (Cr)

So yes the human body has metals. In fact that is why Lead (Pb) is so dangerous. The body mistakes it for other vital metals and uses it instead.
If you are going to get all technical, all of those materials in our body do not conduct electricity at absolute zero. They are ions, not bulk solids that let the electrons wander around, and at low temperatures they would lose their mobility and get stuck in the frozen tissue. They might be causally referred to as metal ions, but no chemist or physicist would consider them to be metal materials.

Also, that description is kinda wonky. Things like YBCO and the other similar cuprates (as well a some iron pnictides) are in the class of materials considered strongly interacting insulators, not metals, yet they become superconductive at low enough temperatures. And then you've got topological insulators, which can conduct electricity across their surface but not through their bulk.

The working definition of a metal that I'm familiar with is a material with a half-filled conduction band. Although astronomers have a weird terminology where anything that is not hydrogen or helium is called a metal ("Hey! This star's spectrum shows lots of oxygen. It is rich in metals.").

Luke
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Old 08-26-2019, 10:35 AM   #26
maximara
 
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Default Re: Ultra-Tech and Magic

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Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
The working definition of a metal that I'm familiar with is a material with a half-filled conduction band. Although astronomers have a weird terminology where anything that is not hydrogen or helium is called a metal ("Hey! This star's spectrum shows lots of oxygen. It is rich in metals.").
The problem is there are metals that don't fit the Band Theory of Electrical Conductivity. Tungsten and Bismuth come to mind and they are both metals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitewings View Post
Of course the human body contains metals. I wasn't thinking in terms of elemental composition, but molecular composition. Calcium phosphate, for example, though it contains calcium, is not a metal in any common usage of that term that I've ever come across.
The plastic that conducts electricity at room temperature isn't a metal either even though the metal in it is what provides the conductivity. Your point?

I should mention given the development of polycarbonates changes the whole dynamics of cybernetics. You get things closer to the Westworld TV series then what we think of cybernetic and there was evidence that most of the events take place in 2052.

Last edited by maximara; 08-26-2019 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 08-26-2019, 12:42 PM   #27
Whitewings
 
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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
The plastic that conducts electricity at room temperature isn't a metal either even though the metal in it is what provides the conductivity. Your point?
That random small-scale Shape Metal effects only affect metals, which living things tend to lack.
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Old 08-26-2019, 01:17 PM   #28
Black Leviathan
 
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Technically, no that argument doesn't work.

Rules As Written a spell is a spell. Purchased with the same rules as skills but removed from the Skill section of the rules. Just like Insta-skill can't purchase an advantage that works a lot like a skill does. Argument can be made that in the game world, magic just a different form of Chemistry or Cooking, just Neurons lined-up correctly in the grey cloud between your ears. But that still doesn't mean that skill translates into Spell in this case. There's the issue of regulation of magic in the game world preventing the production of magic tech. Accessibility to knowledge about the spell could make it not commercially viable. The metaphysics of magic and their comparability with nano-tech may simply not allow the technology to function.

It would be entirely a GM's call if magic can be Insta-skilled into your brain, but if it could, certainly it would be purchased with the same point-system as skills.
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Old 08-27-2019, 11:47 AM   #29
Whitewings
 
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Originally Posted by Black Leviathan View Post
Technically, no that argument doesn't work.

Rules As Written a spell is a spell. Purchased with the same rules as skills but removed from the Skill section of the rules.
Entirely incorrect. To quote B235:

Quote:
Each magic spell is a separate skill, learned just like any other skill. Most spells are IQ/Hard skills, but a few potent spells are IQ/Very Hard. Spells have no default you can only cast spells you know.
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Old 08-27-2019, 12:47 PM   #30
whswhs
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Macro metals:
Calcium (Ca)
Magnesium (Mg)
Sodium (Na)
Potassium (K)

Micro metals:
Iron (Fe)
Copper (Cu)
Manganese (Mn)
Zinc (Zn)
Selenium (Se)
Cobalt (Co)
Molybdenum (Mo)
Chromium (Cr)

So yes the human body has metals. In fact that is why Lead (Pb) is so dangerous. The body mistakes it for other vital metals and uses it instead.
When I studied chemistry, the term "metal" was normally used for the base element, such as Na or Fe. Ionized forms, such as Na+ or Fe(II) or (III), were considered to be distinct species. And the elements you list are normally found in the human body as positive ions, or in molecules or complexes such as heme; hardly ever as the base element.
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