Judas Iscariot as the first vampire?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

That would be either Matthias (Acts 1:15-26) or by some interpretations Paul. Judas is the only specific individual human that is implied to be damned (Matt 26:24).

Judas being a vampire is actually kind of a fun idea. The objection is theological as if taken seriously it mixes Christian and pagan ideas beyond the harmless aesthetic usage. More important vampiricism as it gives the devil the power to enslave captives against their will gives him direct power over who is to be damned which is only in the power of God and the individual.

Going by Stoker and Buffy when you face a vampire you aren't really facing the dead person. In Stoker the soul is trapped inside while a demon from Hell is at the steering wheel which is why they usually look so happy as they die. Of course in the case of someone who is cursed with vampirism for their wickedness in life that might not apply but their infected minions would not be damned by the acts of their possessing demon.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Anders

That's what I'm going for in the Voodoo/MH campaign, where the gnostic world view is part of the setting.

There's also a passage (Matthew 19:28) that can be read as Jesus rewarding Judas. Jesus says that those who have followed him will sit on twelve thrones and judge the tribes of Israel. He's clearly talking about the disciples, or the number twelve would make no sense. But when he says this, Judas is one of the twelve.

I doubt this was what Matthew had in mind, but it sure can be read that way.

That's interesting. Hmm.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Going by Stoker and Buffy when you face a vampire you aren't really facing the dead person. In Stoker the soul is trapped inside while a demon from Hell is at the steering wheel which is why they usually look so happy as they die. Of course in the case of someone who is cursed with vampirism for their wickedness in life that might not apply but their infected minions would not be damned by the acts of their possessing demon.

Really? For some reason I got the impression that a vampire was supposed to be some sort of sub-demon. If you work it out the way you say it makes a bit more sense.

Of course Dracula was a pretty nasty piece of work in his real life by accounts even if some of that is exaggerated and perhaps fairly typical for a Balkan prince. Not the sort of fellow you want to meet though.

One particularly nasty source of vampires I read in a Victorian folklore tome is that some Eastern Europeans thought illegitimate children become vampires. Not the parents whose fault it is, the children. Maybe that sort of resentment is more likely to arise among agriculturalists where one might turn up unexpectedly at a will-reading.

This is loosely relevant but it is about vampires. I once wrote a short story where after Russia was invaded in 1941 a party of Allied agents were assigned to make the first meeting with the NKVD. They made all sorts of black-humor type vampire jokes ("Did you bring the garlic and the holy water?) that kind of thing.

[jason taylor]

You know, if in fact Judas was the first vampire one could extrapolate some esoteric weaknesses from that. He could be vulnerable to silver (I think someone uses that though maybe that is only for werewolves). Or maybe it has to be thirty Denarii with an engraving of Tiberius Caesar. A branch from the tree he hanged himself on. A kiss (make sure it is on the cheek and he doesn't have time to turn and bite you). A relic of course would work.

A nun is obviously invulnerable to a vampire unless she is corrupt.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

He could be vulnerable to silver (I think someone uses that though maybe that is only for werewolves). t.

The guy in Dracula 2000 was vulnerable to silver and for general vampires in fiction I would rate Vulnerability to Silver at about 50% per setting.

As examples, Anita Blake's vamps are vulnerable to silver and at the end of Season 2 Buffy sends Angelus to Hell with the Sacred Silver Sword of Saint Sebastion.

Now, in Love at First Bite (with George Hamilton) it's a no on silver and they play the Vampire or wereworlf? thing for laughs.

<shrug> There are more cases of vampires being vulnerable to silver and also more where they aren't. That's more or less why I rate it as a toss-up.

[Phantasm]

Silver was a traditional weakness to vampires in Victorian-era literature. Dracula himself was described as being vulnerable to silver, because it was the metal of the moon (much like gold is the metal of the sun), and the silver drew the moon's nocturnal power away from the vampire. From Varney through Dracula, exposing a vampire's remains to moonlight revived the vampire to undeath - unless certain precautions were taken (as in Lucy's case). The stake apparently did not even need to be silver or wooden - Dracula was killed by a steel Bowie knife in the back!

(Ironically, they weren't vulnerable to gold for some reason. Then again, during the day, Victorian-era vampires were weakened to their natural mortal strength, losing their powers.)

I know someone said that Judas should only be killed by hanging. I posit that he was cursed not because of his betrayal (which he was apparently told to do by Jesus), but because he tried to kill himself from the guilt of the consequences of the betrayal. According to Christian belief, those that take their own lives are damned to Hell; however, because he was a disciple, Judas was also barred from Hell! So his curse imposed by God ended up one of a living death, and then the devil twisted that curse to be communicable.

Make sense?

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

Silver was a traditional weakness to vampires in Victorian-era literature. Dracula himself was described as being vulnerable to silver, because it was the metal of the moon (much like gold is the metal of the sun), and the silver drew the moon's nocturnal power away from the vampire. From Varney through Dracula, exposing a vampire's remains to moonlight revived the vampire to undeath - unless certain precautions were taken (as in Lucy's case). The stake apparently did not even need to be silver or wooden - Dracula was killed by a steel Bowie knife in the back!

(Ironically, they weren't vulnerable to gold for some reason. Then again, during the day, Victorian-era vampires were weakened to their natural mortal strength, losing their powers.)

I know someone said that Judas should only be killed by hanging. I posit that he was cursed not because of his betrayal (which he was apparently told to do by Jesus), but because he tried to kill himself from the guilt of the consequences of the betrayal. According to Christian belief, those that take their own lives are damned to Hell; however, because he was a disciple, Judas was also barred from Hell! So his curse imposed by God ended up one of a living death, and then the devil twisted that curse to be communicable.

Make sense?

I think that was an irony. Like Ney telling the firing squad to shoot straight. I don't really think suicides are never forgiven (on that ground anyone with unconfessed sin is damned which makes a poor memory damnable). Some do think that; Bill Donovan never carried an L-pill when he went on foreign trips for instance. However Judas' last sin was despair. He gave up on God's power to forgive. Peter did repent of the sin of cowardice and was forgiven. Judas would have been forgiven of treachery but didn't want to ask.

If Judas' last sin was despair, that would tell something about vampires wouldn't it? How could that be used?

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

I think that was an irony. Like Ney telling the firing squad to shoot straight. I don't really think suicides are never forgiven (on that ground anyone with unconfessed sin is damned which makes a poor memory damnable). Some do think that; Bill Donovan never carried an L-pill when he went on foreign trips for instance. However Judas' last sin was despair. He gave up on God's power to forgive. Peter did repent of the sin of cowardice and was forgiven. Judas would have been forgiven of treachery but didn't want to ask.

If Judas' last sin was despair, that would tell something about vampires wouldn't it? How could that be used?

I think a logical addition based on that could be that it's provably possible for a vampire to redeem himself, but it's almost never happened because they don't believe it's possible.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Going by Stoker and Buffy when you face a vampire you aren't really facing the dead person. In Stoker the soul is trapped inside while a demon from Hell is at the steering wheel which is why they usually look so happy as they die. Of course in the case of someone who is cursed with vampirism for their wickedness in life that might not apply but their infected minions would not be damned by the acts of their possessing demon.

Yeah, there are a few options to make it so that people don't get damned due to getting vamped. Another would be that those who have already been redeemed (note a lot of denominations hold that everyone is basically born damned, or at least damns themselves rather quickly, but can be later redeemed) cannot be turned into a vampire - going through the process of making a vampire either leaves them unchanged, or leaves them a lifeless corpse (if the process would kill a normal person); note the latter would be part of the Covenant of Rest Perk.

[schmeelke]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I can't find a clip of it, but apparently in Fright Night there's a scene where the protagonists try to distract a vampire by dumping a large box of toothpicks in front of him. He glances at the floor, states "One thousand, three hundred and forty seven," and immediately resumes his attack.

Dracula in Dracula II: Ascension (a direct-to-video sequel to Dracula 2000) does this multiple times in succession:

Originally Posted by IMDb

To protect themselves, Luke has sprinkled seeds around the vampire and placed a knotted net on his chest. In the melee that ensues, Lowell becomes a vampire and Dracula breaks free from his bindings. First, Dracula bites off Eric's face. Then he turns on Luke and Liz. Luke reminds him that he must untie all the knots, but Dracula tosses down a knotfree net. [Already done!] Luke reminds him that he must count all the seeds, and Dracula replies, "47,812." Luke tosses a bucket of seeds at him and challenges, "Count these!" Before the seeds even hit the ground, Dracula says, "737,818." When one more seed falls from the basket, Dracula amends his count to "...19."