Demon vs Devils

[b-dog]

I know DF doesn’t distinguish between types of evil but I always like the AD&D concept of demons being chaotic evil and devils being lawful evil. I always took it as demons being the punk rockers while devils were heavy metal. Demons were nihilist and only wanted destruction while devil wanted to seize power just to torture others. I don’t know if this makes sense but it did to me when I was younger. Demons were the quick to power and they burnt out quickly while devils were slow and methodical in their ascent but they were able to hold onto it longer. Just my two cents..

[Anthony]

You can certainly have multiple sources of evil, but in practice the devil/demon distinction in D&D was mostly confusing unless you cared about the Blood War.

[Refplace]

It was just an effort to fill in the two alignment structure.
In GURPS you can have much more variety. Say a different hell for each evil disadvantage.

[Kromm]

The distinction is fairly meaningless in most real-world mythologies. Or to be precise, it's a question of having a synonym to make fire-and-brimstone screeds less boring.

There's room in GURPS for lots and lots of different behavior patterns for demon-class monsters. Just choose the configuration of mental disadvantages you like. For added fun, group monsters who act a certain way around demon lords who like that in their posse, and let the demons who wouldn't naturally gravitate to a leader function as independents.

However, that needn't have anything to do with planes of existence or black-and-white morality. As-Sharak are bound to a protected place and have a strict mission imposed by a curse, hellhounds cooperate and serve as the hunting dogs of greater demons, and peshkali and toxifiers substantially lack unpleasant mental problems and mainly do what they do as guardians . . . all seem to be part of a hierarchy. Demons of Old, who are just straight-up into killing and torturing for the fun of it, and doomchildren, who are nothing but barely-sapient kamikaze murderers, appear to be closer to impersonal forces of pure hate; some are more powerful than others, so there's still a de facto hierarchy. But they're all Evil and they all come from Hell.

I kind of like the In Nomine model where different types of demons belong to "bands," and these are represented in greater or lesser numbers in the forces of each demon prince – and given differing missions – depending on that prince's role and disposition. Such princes would of course rule different parts of Hell, but that isn't the same as each having a separate plane of existence to rule.

[DouglasCole]

The devil vs demon split was ported into the Nordlond setting as kvoldomur (demons) and tyrann (devils). They would be completely easy to make as bands, and are identified as such.

Kvoldomur: A demon of chaos motivated by the desire to cause suffering.

Tyrann: A demon motivated by the desire to dominate and rule over all.

While both have a hierarchy of power, the tyranns have an end-state that resembles them ruling over a pitiful and groveling humanity. The Kvoldomur's end state involves screams and mutilation.

I've got the falleglygi (succubi) and the bolvathr (the cursed) as being a third type of lesser residents of muspelheim, and it would be trivial to add more factions in the way Kromm suggests.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Anthony

You can certainly have multiple sources of evil, but in practice the devil/demon distinction in D&D was mostly confusing unless you cared about the Blood War.

This. From the standpoint of a player, they both sucked. They both did bad things, they both had minions, they both had hit points, they both were brought to you by letters G, H, I, R, and U. The distinction was one of those pure world building things that didn’t matter in play.

[The Colonel]

Might be useful to have devils as the servants of evil gods whilst demons are independents/survivors of whatever was before creation/things from outside. Demon could simply be a classification for a sapient and powerful evil spirit.

In the end, it is, as noted, a worldbuilding thing to allow for red on red conflict - although as generally written the demons would as cheerfully fight each other as they would anything else. The usual D&D mistake was to make demons far too co-operative with one another.

[b-dog]

In DF absolute Good and absolute Evil exist so why not absolute Law and Absolute Chaos too? Yes there are problems with Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil but there are also problems with absolute Evil by itself. It really is hard not to default to the old Gygaxian alignment system for me because AD&D is what I played when I was young.

[Black Leviathan]

A unicorn and a Kirin are different, outside of appearance and game mechanics. Demons and Devils are both forces of an Evil cosmology and outside of cultural differences, possible different infernal languages, or deep-seated convictions about what defines a real pizza, they're just different names for the same animal.

But I think you should make a distinction. Demons or Devils aren't any less homogenous than Mexicans and Japanese I'm sure. But they're not so different that they require different statistics or abilities or cosmology. But to a Demon they could very much not identify with Devils. They may find being conflated with Devils offensive. They may not be able to provide accurate information about Devil culture or etiquette. They may find the environs of hell that Devils occupy to be uncomfortably hot, may believe their cooking is inedible, may believe Devils are after their jobs, women,

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Kromm

There's room in GURPS for lots and lots of different behavior patterns for demon-class monsters. Just choose the configuration of mental disadvantages you like. For added fun, group monsters who act a certain way around demon lords who like that in their posse, and let the demons who wouldn't naturally gravitate to a leader function as independents.

I’ve always wanted to see a cosmology with demon princes and servitors aligned in “bands” based on the cardinal sins. Succubi/incubi obviously go with Lust; Wrath/Anger fit lots of published foes; Sloth and Avarice might make interesting niches.