Blackjack/SAP rules

kerrunch · 11-22-2015, 02:34 AM

I’ve been trying to get hold of the blackjack/sap skill, but so far haven’t got a grasp of the rules.

I’ve tried to look for the rules in (4th edition basic rules and the low-tech) books, the internet and this forum, but I’m still somewhat lost. I hope someone would be able to help me with this.

For example, if a spy (with ST10 and DX10) who attempts to attack a guard from behind with a blackjack…

1) the spy rolls a normal attack roll but the guard cannot dodge or parry (unless peripheral vision)?
2) If the attack roll is successful, the spy rolls for damage (strong attack would be d6-2 + 2 for the strong attack - so a d6?)
3) If the spy is able to make penetrating damage (at least one point after any possible armour/thick skin etc), the guard has to roll a knockdown roll? The damage modifier is x4? when does the -10 knockdown modifier apply?
4) I chose a Blackjack/Sap weapon skill (DX 11) for my character but should it be brawling instead?
5) Do you see differences when using a blackjack or a sap - are the weapons (from the rules point of view)

Gollum · 11-22-2015, 03:10 AM

1) The spy rolls for his attack. Depending on what maneuver he chose, it is a normal attack or an all-out attack (determined, double or strong) ... The guard cannot dodge or parry unless he is aware of the attack (if the spy lost his Stealth vs the guard's Perception quick contest of skills for instance, or if the guard has Peripheral Vision, indeed).

2) The damage for a sap or blackjack is Thrust cr. For a ST 10 character, it means 1d-2. If your spy knows brawling at DX+2 level, he adds +1 to that. It becomes 1d-1. If his maneuver was all-out attack (strong), he adds +2 to that. It now becomes 1d+1 (or 1d, yes, if he doesn't have the Brawling skill at DX+2 level).

3) If the guard is not hit to the head (penalty to the attack roll), the guard only has to make a knock down and stunning roll if he suffers a major wound. A blow to the back or shoulder (torso, no penalty to the attack roll), for instance, will hurt but rarely knock him down. If the guard is hit to head, now, he has to make a knock down and stunning roll as soon as he suffers 1 point of penetrating damage. And if it is a major wound to the skull, the knock down and stunning roll is made with a -10 penalty. See Knock down and stunning, Basic Set, page 420. If the guard is hit to the skull, the skull provides him a Damage Resistance (DR) of 2 but then, every penetrating point of damage is multiplied by 4.

4) I didn't succeed to find the Blackjack/Sap skill in my rules. Where did you find it? Low-Tech, Martial Arts (I didn't search in these books)? To my point of view, Brawling would still be a better choice for a spy because it also allows to fight bare handed (so, you save character points).

5) I don't see any difference compared with other weapons ... But there may be some in more precise books (Low-Tech, Martial Arts)...

Note:
Trying to hit the head (surely the skull, form backward) gives a -7 penalty to the attack roll. This can be reduced with the all-out attack (determined) maneuver, which gives a +4 (but the spy looses the +2 damage bonus from all-out attack strong, then). He can also take one or several Evaluate maneuvers before hitting (but he risks being noticed by the guard). Each Evaluate maneuver gives him a +1 to the attack roll (up to a maximum of +3). The spy can also use the Telegraphic Attack option (Martial Arts, page 113), which gives another +4.

acrosome · 11-22-2015, 06:46 AM

By RAW (B271) blackjacks and saps use Brawling skill. There is no Blackjack skill.

I could really make an argument that they should use Axe/Mace, though.

johndallman · 11-22-2015, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gollum

4) I didn't succeed to find the Blackjack/Sap skill in my rules.

It isn't a separate skill. You use Brawling. See B182 and B271.

Quote:

Trying to hit the head (surely the skull, form backward) gives a -7 penalty to the attack roll.

Some groups use -5 to hit the face and -7 to hit the skull from in front, -6 and -6 from the side, and -5 to the skull and -7 to the face from behind.

kerrunch · 11-22-2015, 07:53 AM

Thanks all for the comment - they helped a lot.

About the "Blackjack skill". For some reason I though that Blackjack would be a skill of its own - but clearly the used skill is brawling.

As the character has just the basic level (DX10) of brawling, it seems that when trying to attack from behind, the determined attack is the only option to have at least some sort of a chance of hitting the target.

If I understood correctly, the damage (d6-2 with the x4 modifier and skill DR2) would be 2, 2, 2, 12, 18 or 22 points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndallman

Some groups use -5 to hit the face and -7 to hit the skull from in front, -6 and -6 from the side, and -5 to the skull and -7 to the face from behind.

That sounds logical to me.

Sam Baughn · 11-22-2015, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndallman

Some groups use -5 to hit the face and -7 to hit the skull from in front, -6 and -6 from the side, and -5 to the skull and -7 to the face from behind.

The skull being -5 from behind is official; it's in Martial Arts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerrunch

If I understood correctly, the damage (d6-2 with the x4 modifier and skill DR2) would be 2, 2, 2, 12, 18 or 22 points.

No, you're applying the x4 multiplier at the wrong point; it should be the last step. The correct progression would be 0,0,0,0,4,8.

If you do any injury, the target has to check for knockdown and stun. If it's a Major Wound then that check is at -10. A Major Wound is you do more than half your target's HP in one hit. So a HP 10 person would suffer a major wound if they took 6 of more points of injury in one go.

Gollum · 11-22-2015, 09:37 AM

Perfect Organism is perfectly right. As well as others above.

Kromm (Sean Punch) said that the hit location penalties depend on several factors:

The size of the limb.
Its mobility.
How the victim protects it thanks to his usual guard.

From behind, the skull is bigger and, since the victim cannot maintain any guard, it is much easier to aim at it. So, the penalty has to be reduced. I completely forgot that in my post above ...

Now, as you can see, it's harder to knock out someone in GURPS that it is in cinematic movies like James Bond. Of course! GURPS is more realistic than James Bond ...

So, the best the spy can do is an all-out attack (strong) which will give him a +2 to damage. He will then inflict 1d of crushing damage (if I understood well, he only has Brawling (DX+1)-11, so, no bonus because he didn't reach DX+2 which gives a +1 to damage).

Here are the possible results:

Die roll 1: 1 - 2 (DR) = 0 point of damage.
Die roll 2: 2 - 2 (DR) = 0 point of damage.
Die roll 3: 3 - 2 (DR) = 1 ; x 4 = 4 points of damage.
Die roll 4: 4 - 2 (DR) = 2 ; x 4 = 8 points of damage.
Die roll 5: 5 - 2 (DR) = 3 ; x 4 = 12 points of damage.
Die roll 6: 6 - 2 (DR) = 4 ; x 4 = 16 points of damage.

And for the attack roll, just use the Telegraphic Attack option which gives him a +4 and one to three turns of Evaluate maneuver which will give him a further +1 to +3. It will compensate the -5 for aiming at the skull from behind.

Note that if you want a cinematic game like James Bond, you can use the Canon Folder rules (Basic Set, page 417). 1 point of penetrating damage is sufficient to make the guard collapse without any roll to avoid that.

Other note: if you don't have Martial Arts, the Telegraphic Attack is an attack which gives you a +4 to your attack roll but which is so obvious for the defender that it gives him a +2 to his defense roll. Now, if the defender doesn't have any defense, it is a very good choice! You will find this rule page 113, and Martial Arts gives a lot of other very good realistic and cinematic rules ...

kerrunch · 11-22-2015, 09:58 AM

It took a while but finally I saw the light - a very big thank to you all!

Anaraxes · 11-22-2015, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerrunch

If I understood correctly, the damage (d6-2 with the x4 modifier and skill DR2) would be 2

To highlight the answer that's already been posted, there's in important distinction in GURPS between "damage" and "injury". Something to stay alert for. The words are nearly synonyms in casual use, but in the rules they're jargon. There are effects, like knockback for instance, that depend on "damage" regardless of whether or not armor prevents any "injury".

(See "Damage and Injury" on page B377 in Campaigns. You roll "damage", subtract DR to get "penetrating damage", with which you multiply the "wounding modifier" to get "injury", which is what gets subtracted from hit points.)

Skarg · 11-22-2015, 10:53 AM

Eh semi-realistic James Bond is probably more like ST 13 DX 16 Brawling-20 Karate-16, or something, and so can probably do All Out Attack for two attacks and probably hit with both and likely result in multiple knockout checks, stunning, knockdown, plenty of shock penalties for follow-up attacks if that wasn't enough, etc. No need for cinematic rules, if you have awesome skills.

11-22-2015, 02:34 AM	#1
kerrunch Join Date: Nov 2015	Blackjack/SAP rules I’ve been trying to get hold of the blackjack/sap skill, but so far haven’t got a grasp of the rules. I’ve tried to look for the rules in (4th edition basic rules and the low-tech) books, the internet and this forum, but I’m still somewhat lost. I hope someone would be able to help me with this. For example, if a spy (with ST10 and DX10) who attempts to attack a guard from behind with a blackjack… 1) the spy rolls a normal attack roll but the guard cannot dodge or parry (unless peripheral vision)? 2) If the attack roll is successful, the spy rolls for damage (strong attack would be d6-2 + 2 for the strong attack - so a d6?) 3) If the spy is able to make penetrating damage (at least one point after any possible armour/thick skin etc), the guard has to roll a knockdown roll? The damage modifier is x4? when does the -10 knockdown modifier apply? 4) I chose a Blackjack/Sap weapon skill (DX 11) for my character but should it be brawling instead? 5) Do you see differences when using a blackjack or a sap - are the weapons (from the rules point of view)

11-22-2015, 03:10 AM	#2
Gollum Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: France	Re: Blackjack/SAP rules 1) The spy rolls for his attack. Depending on what maneuver he chose, it is a normal attack or an all-out attack (determined, double or strong) ... The guard cannot dodge or parry unless he is aware of the attack (if the spy lost his Stealth vs the guard's Perception quick contest of skills for instance, or if the guard has Peripheral Vision, indeed). 2) The damage for a sap or blackjack is Thrust cr. For a ST 10 character, it means 1d-2. If your spy knows brawling at DX+2 level, he adds +1 to that. It becomes 1d-1. If his maneuver was all-out attack (strong), he adds +2 to that. It now becomes 1d+1 (or 1d, yes, if he doesn't have the Brawling skill at DX+2 level). 3) If the guard is not hit to the head (penalty to the attack roll), the guard only has to make a knock down and stunning roll if he suffers a major wound. A blow to the back or shoulder (torso, no penalty to the attack roll), for instance, will hurt but rarely knock him down. If the guard is hit to head, now, he has to make a knock down and stunning roll as soon as he suffers 1 point of penetrating damage. And if it is a major wound to the skull, the knock down and stunning roll is made with a -10 penalty. See Knock down and stunning, *Basic Set, page 420. If the guard is hit to the skull, the skull provides him a Damage Resistance (DR) of 2 but then, every penetrating point of damage is multiplied by 4. 4) I didn't succeed to find the Blackjack/Sap skill in my rules. Where did you find it? Low-Tech, Martial Arts* (I didn't search in these books)? To my point of view, Brawling would still be a better choice for a spy because it also allows to fight bare handed (so, you save character points). 5) I don't see any difference compared with other weapons ... But there may be some in more precise books (*Low-Tech, Martial Arts)... Note: Trying to hit the head (surely the skull, form backward) gives a -7 penalty to the attack roll. This can be reduced with the all-out attack (determined) maneuver, which gives a +4 (but the spy looses the +2 damage bonus from all-out attack strong, then). He can also take one or several Evaluate maneuvers before hitting (but he risks being noticed by the guard). Each Evaluate maneuver gives him a +1 to the attack roll (up to a maximum of +3). The spy can also use the Telegraphic Attack option (Martial Arts, page 113), which gives another +4. Last edited by Gollum; 11-22-2015 at 03:45 AM.*

11-22-2015, 06:46 AM	#3
acrosome Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: The Land of Enchantment	Re: Blackjack/SAP rules By RAW (B271) blackjacks and saps use Brawling skill. There is no Blackjack skill. I could really make an argument that they should use Axe/Mace, though.

11-22-2015, 09:37 AM	#7
Gollum Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: France	A Perfect Organism is perfectly right. As well as others above. Kromm (Sean Punch) said that the hit location penalties depend on several factors: The size of the limb. Its mobility. How the victim protects it thanks to his usual guard. From behind, the skull is bigger and, since the victim cannot maintain any guard, it is much easier to aim at it. So, the penalty has to be reduced. I completely forgot that in my post above ... Now, as you can see, it's harder to knock out someone in GURPS that it is in cinematic movies like *James Bond. Of course! GURPS is more realistic than James Bond* ... So, the best the spy can do is an all-out attack (strong) which will give him a +2 to damage. He will then inflict 1d of crushing damage (if I understood well, he only has Brawling (DX+1)-11, so, no bonus because he didn't reach DX+2 which gives a +1 to damage). Here are the possible results: Die roll 1: 1 - 2 (DR) = 0 point of damage. Die roll 2: 2 - 2 (DR) = 0 point of damage. Die roll 3: 3 - 2 (DR) = 1 ; x 4 = 4 points of damage. Die roll 4: 4 - 2 (DR) = 2 ; x 4 = 8 points of damage. Die roll 5: 5 - 2 (DR) = 3 ; x 4 = 12 points of damage. Die roll 6: 6 - 2 (DR) = 4 ; x 4 = 16 points of damage. And for the attack roll, just use the Telegraphic Attack option which gives him a +4 and one to three turns of Evaluate maneuver which will give him a further +1 to +3. It will compensate the -5 for aiming at the skull from behind. Note that if you want a cinematic game like James Bond, you can use the Canon Folder rules (Basic Set, page 417). 1 point of penetrating damage is sufficient to make the guard collapse without any roll to avoid that. Other note: if you don't have Martial Arts, the Telegraphic Attack is an attack which gives you a +4 to your attack roll but which is so obvious for the defender that it gives him a +2 to his defense roll. Now, if the defender doesn't have any defense, it is a very good choice! You will find this rule page 113, and Martial Arts gives a lot of other very good realistic and cinematic rules ... Last edited by Gollum; 11-22-2015 at 09:58 AM.

11-22-2015, 09:58 AM	#8
kerrunch Join Date: Nov 2015	Re: Blackjack/SAP rules It took a while but finally I saw the light - a very big thank to you all!

11-22-2015, 10:53 AM	#10
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Blackjack/SAP rules Eh semi-realistic James Bond is probably more like ST 13 DX 16 Brawling-20 Karate-16, or something, and so can probably do All Out Attack for two attacks and probably hit with both and likely result in multiple knockout checks, stunning, knockdown, plenty of shock penalties for follow-up attacks if that wasn't enough, etc. No need for cinematic rules, if you have awesome skills.