The "right" value for a SHVY?

[EdwardF]

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

...and the progression from AU2 SHY to the AU3 SHY to a Mark1 at AU4 when considered as a whole seems very solid Imho...

I would count this, as a very strong argument, for leaving the point values, as they stand. I would also add, that the number/strength of the AP guns, would be the easiest place to tweak it, if your experience finds it in need of change.

I seem to remember that OGRE miniatures had:

2 ANTIPERSONNEL
ATK 2 RNG 2” DEF 1

... listed for the SHVY on the Record Sheets in the back of the book.

If you think that the SHVY is the wrong cost for your table, I suggest leaving the AU values alone, and tweak the strength or number of AP guns, and see if that balances out.

[brettd]

I'd favor an optional "no more than 25%" limit on all specific unit types not included in the original OGRE (HVY, MSL, GEV, HOW, INF). That would give a sense that these were the "core" units of any army, although it would still be easy not to buy any (25% each SHVY, LT, LGEV, MHOW, etc...). If someone wants to go pure GEV or HVY, let them. Nobody is going to go pure MSL anyway....

[Belle Sorciere]

I'd say if you're going to have a limit, it should be all or nothing, rather than selective.

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by Belle Sorciere

I'd say if you're going to have a limit, it should be all or nothing, rather than selective.

There aren't any official limits on anything, those are just guidelines that people have developed over the years. It's pretty easy to work out with your friends to set ground rules for that kind of thing.

[Belle Sorciere]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

There aren't any official limits on anything, those are just guidelines that people have developed over the years. It's pretty easy to work out with your friends to set ground rules for that kind of thing.

I know. I mean the guidelines were specifically created in response to people taking all GEVs in Ogre, or at least that's the context of where I heard about them.

[hcobb]

Formula writer slipped the mistake past the Ogre Book proofreader.

Unfortunately both were me so I can't blame anybody else.

MHWZ almost always gets first shot vs SHVY and so wins 5/9ths of the time. (W/o partial damage.)

[Buzzardo]

Originally Posted by Desert Scribe

Simplicity. It's easier to trade other units for superheavies on a 2-to-1 basis, and they have the same value as howitzers and mobile howitzers. It's also the same 2-1 ratio as a regular vehicle for a light tank or LGEV.

I keep coming back to this thought. I like the simplicity of it.

Originally Posted by hcobb

MHWZ almost always gets first shot vs SHVY and so wins 5/9ths of the time. (W/o partial damage.)

Having a (nearly) 50/50 chance of winning on the first shot makes me think the two have equal value, so that's more support for a value of 2 AU for the SHVY.

On t'other hand, if the SHVY gets the first shot, the MHWZ is toast, so they're not equal. Of course, a HVY stomps a MHWZ, too.

Anyway, I keep coming back to a value of 2 AU for a SHVY.

[ianargent]

As a long-time newb (I've played probably a dozen or so games since the late eighties/early nineties; maybe 3 with the ODE rules), the simplicity of SHVY being 2 AU is appealing. The units that are priced in fractional AU (looking at the ARF HGEV and MGEV...) annoy me, because in most scenarios where you get to vary your unit mix, that means you're committed to buying them in pairs, even if you want (say) 3. And 3 AU makes them appear to be overcosted for 2 guns, even if they ride behind D5 and reach out 3 hexes.

I can't speak to the effectiveness of the SHVY, though, so that's just the appearance, not the (potential) reality. As 3 AU, I'm not likely to buy any to try them out.

[Buzzardo]

Originally Posted by ianargent

A[t] 3 AU, I'm not likely to buy any to try them out.

You've hit another argument for 2 AU - if no one uses them, they're not good for the game.

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by Buzzardo

You've hit another argument for 2 AU - if no one uses them, they're not good for the game.

but if nobody uses other units because they are obsoleted by a 2 AU SHVY, that's not any better.