The "right" value for a SHVY?

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by ColBosch

Now back to the actual discussion: an all- or mostly-SHVY force is pretty scary, but that just reinforces the Fuzzy Wuzzy problem. When acting as just part of a mixed force, the SHVY's strengths and weaknesses are more balanced, so I'd keep it as 2 AU.

This isn't exactly a Fuzzy Wuzzy issue, but it does demonstrate a failing of unit design. Remember, the result of the GEV Fuzzy Wuzzy was a change in the unit that was unbalanced (changing the GEV from M4 to M4-3). It does not logically follow that if there's a balance issue, we should change nothing. By your logic, the unit should be changed to fix the problem. We can't change the unit, so we should change the cost.

[TheAmishStig]

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

This seems to suggest the Superheavy in general is a better unit than the MARK1.

They're better at different things. The Mk.I is better at taking punishment (including effects against itself when ramming), while the Superheavy is better at dealing it (A3 + A3 vs A4). If I had to guess, the Combine copied the design for economic reasons...life is cheap, cybernetic cores aren't.

Mk.I Pros:
- "True" partial damage
- Tread Unit damage when ramming
- Immune to "D" results

Mk.I Cons:
- Single "regular" weapon system
- Expensive in game terms [25VP, or 4AU]
- Expensive in in-universe money [AI core]

Superheavy Pros:
- Higher non-AP A rating
- Two "regular" weapons systems
- Cheap in game terms [12-18VP, 2-3AU]
- Cheap in in-universe money [crew-served]

Superheavy Cons:
- Susceptible to D results
- Possible to one-hit kill in both 'Normal' and 'Partial Damage' forms
- Can disable or destroy itself when ramming

[wolf90]

I'm going to do something that is generally a bad idea in my position . . . express an opinion at odds with the established canon.

As I've previous posted (often!), I believe the SHVY is grossly undervalued. I think it should be a 3 AU unit (at least!) and that's without the partial damage optional rule (that sucker is a 4 AU unit). These issues may be ameliorated by implementing the "Fuzzy Fuzzy rule": no force may be comprised of greater than 25% of the same unit. This greatly dilutes the effect of SHVYs (I don't feel like it's enough, but it is a start). All of this said, there are arguments contrary to my position which merit consideration. But I will never fault a group that implements a "+1 AU cost" house rule to whatever version of SHVY they are using!

D.

[TheAmishStig]

Originally Posted by wolf90

I'm going to do something that is generally a bad idea in my position . . . express an opinion at odds with the established canon.

As I've previous posted (often!), I believe the SHVY is grossly undervalued. I think it should be a 3 AU unit (at least!) and that's without the partial damage optional rule (that sucker is a 4 AU unit). These issues may be ameliorated by implementing the "Fuzzy Fuzzy rule": no force may be comprised of greater than 25% of the same unit. This greatly dilutes the effect of SHVYs (I don't feel like it's enough, but it is a start). All of this said, there are arguments contrary to my position which merit consideration. But I will never fault a group that implements a "+1 AU cost" house rule to whatever version of SHVY they are using!

D.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the Fuzzy Fuzzy approach...if only because it tends to cover up problems instead of addressing them. Still, it's a very useful tool in scenario design to give players some wiggle room without sacrificing the feel of the scenario.

A follow-up question, with the note that this is not asking for any statement in any official capacity, just bouncing ideas off somebody who knows the game better than I do:

- If Steve said 'You know what, you're right', would this only apply to Green Map situations? I don't have anything concrete, just gut instinct, but at 4AU for a PD Superheavy that makes it the same cost as a Mk.I...the only ways I see the Superheavy beating a Mk.I on the orange map often enough to be seen as peers is a fluke of the dice or extreme tactical error. But I'll yield that there's very possibly something I'm missing.

If it can pull a string of NEs on '1-1 when rammed' attacks, a string of NEs on 1-2 pot-shots from the main gun, and a string of low rolls on the ram damage itself long enough to get a mobility advantage, then it can win. If it can't...

[TheAmishStig]

Though it does bring up something: the rules say a D affects the unit normally, additional Ds have no further result...then immediately clarifies that Ds don't scale to Xs.

Does that also mean that while Disabled, a PD Superheavy also treats Ds as NEs, or does the 'Disabled on...' clock reset but nothing else happens?

If the former, I may have to amend the previous post since I wasn't banking on "It's going to recover unless you auto-kill it".

[ColBosch]

Originally Posted by TheAmishStig

Though it does bring up something: the rules say a D affects the unit normally, additional Ds have no further result...then immediately clarifies that Ds don't scale to Xs.

Does that also mean that while Disabled, a PD Superheavy also treats Ds as NEs, or does the 'Disabled on...' clock reset but nothing else happens?

If the former, I may have to amend the previous post since I wasn't banking on "It's going to recover unless you auto-kill it".

It's Ogre. Don't over-think the rules. Yes, when a SHVY is using its advanced rules and record sheet, and it is disabled, further D effects have no effect.

I'm beginning to come around to that 3/4 AU thing...

[selenite]

Originally Posted by wolf90

But I will never fault a group that implements a "+1 AU cost" house rule to whatever version of SHVY they are using!

I'm leaning more toward 2.5 AU than 3 AU for SHVYs. But there's not much data behind that as I've been using the 2 AU cost. Sounds like next time I play Ceasefire Collapse online I should take SHVYs and have some of them sit in the corner so I can simulate having a smaller force.

(It'd be nice to have the videogame offer adjustable pricing, but that's way down on my wish list for it.)

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by selenite

I'm leaning more toward 2.5 AU than 3 AU for SHVYs. But there's not much data behind that as I've been using the 2 AU cost. Sounds like next time I play Ceasefire Collapse online I should take SHVYs and have some of them sit in the corner so I can simulate having a smaller force.

(It'd be nice to have the videogame offer adjustable pricing, but that's way down on my wish list for it.)

If only there was a way to take "up-to" a maximum in the Steam version instead of being forced to always take all your AU allotment...

[TheAmishStig]

Originally Posted by ColBosch

It's Ogre. Don't over-think the rules. Yes, when a SHVY is using its advanced rules and record sheet, and it is disabled, further D effects have no effect.

I'm beginning to come around to that 3/4 AU thing...

Better to look dumb around you guys than it is to look dumb out on the convention circuit, bringing a game to a halt with 'Umm...good question. I don't know', which sets you up for the other person to lead into their preferred interpretation (read, the one that benefits them in that specific game) via 'Well semantically...'

"Ignores D while disabled" does boost its defensive abilities a bit [compared to 'there are so many ways to disable it, which sets it up for easy squishings]. I'm gonna have to rethink that earlier opinion, maybe they're closer on the orange map than initially thought.

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by ColBosch

Even if the SHVY takes out the Mk. I's gun, the Ogre can still run it down and ram it to pieces.

Should have made myself clearer instead of generalizing about the Superheavy...

No, it can't run down the entire 4 points worth of units in one turn you didn't mention. If a normal Superheavy is in the battle the 2 points remaining after purchasing the Superheavy were spent on additional unit(s) the MARK1 has to deal with. Which could be, for example:
x2 GEVs, x4 Light GEVs, or...ANOTHER Superheavy, ect. Ram that.
If a "13.07 Partial Damage for Superheavies" (Record Sheet SHVY) is in the battle the 1 point remaining after purchasing the Superheavy were spent on additional unit(s) the MARK1 has to deal with. Which could be, for example:
1 GEV, x2 Light GEVs, ect. Or, Ram that.

Combine fielded their own Superheavies after Paneurope did. That suggests to me their MARK1s were developed and fielded with hubris, evidenced by the fact 23 years later they saw how effective Paneuropes Superheavies were generally compared to a Mark1 and made their own.

Originally Posted by TheAmishStig

They're better at different things. The Mk.I is better at taking punishment (including effects against itself when ramming), while the Superheavy is better at dealing it (A3 + A3 vs A4). If I had to guess, the Combine copied the design for economic reasons...life is cheap, cybernetic cores aren't.

Mk.I Pros:
- "True" partial damage
- Tread Unit damage when ramming
- Immune to "D" results

Mk.I Cons:
- Single "regular" weapon system
- Expensive in game terms [25VP, or 4AU]
- Expensive in in-universe money [AI core]

Superheavy Pros:
- Higher non-AP A rating
- Two "regular" weapons systems
- Cheap in game terms [12-18VP, 2-3AU]
- Cheap in in-universe money [crew-served]

Superheavy Cons:
- Susceptible to D results
- Possible to one-hit kill in both 'Normal' and 'Partial Damage' forms
- Can disable or destroy itself when ramming

Thanks for the helpful insight and continuing the actual discussion.

By the way, the original OGRE Reinforcements had MARK1s at a cost of 5 AU. It was also a "Combine only" OGRE...

We now have a early Last War Superheavy and a later Last War Superheavy (if you play with both), or you can choose to only have one in your OGREverse.

That said, I conclude Steve has this all correct now and suggest we leave it as is.