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Old 06-22-2012, 05:23 PM   #1
ak_aramis
 
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Default The Cost to run Amateur Night...

Because of Swordtart's thread, I got thinking...

Rules in use: Compendium 2.5

Scenario: Amateur night, using Killer Carts (or other Div 4 vehicles)

Let's look at costs of mechanics:

Mech +0 Makes upkeep plus $8K - roughly $305/week
Mech +1 Makes upkeep plus $10K - roughly $345/week
Mech +2 Makes upkeep plus $15K - roughly $440/week
Mech +3 makes upkeep plus $20k - roughly $535/week
We can probably round these further.
Mech +0 makes probably $310.
Mech +1 makes probably $350.
Mech +2 makes probably $450
Mech +3 makes probably $550 (and gets more than 2x the work done.

Now, repairing a killer kart, with a good shop...
Average time is inverse of success rate, in hours, time halved for Mech +3's.
replace armor§, replace the MG, or repair a hit on the MG: Medium task.
+0: 3.6 hours average time $27.90
+1: 1.7 hours average time $14.88
+2: 1.2 hours average time $13.50
+3: 0.5 hours average time $6.88

Repairing a hit on a PP or install a new one
+0: 12 hours average time $93.00
+1: 3.6 hours average time $31.50
+2: 1.7 hours average time $19.13
+3: 0.6 hours average time $8.25

MG Repairs:
1 hit: 66+ Mechanic time (+3=$72.88)(+2=$79.50)
2 hits: 200+ Mechanic time (+3=$213.76)(+2=$227)
3 hits: 1000+Mechanic Time (+3=$1006.88)(+2=1013.5)(+1=1014.88)(+0=$1027.9)

PP Repairs
1 hit: 66+ Mechanic time (+3=$74.25)(+2=$85.13)
2 hits: 200+ Mechanic time (+3=$216.5)(+2=$238.26)
3 hits: 333+ Mechanic time (+3=$357.75)(+2=$390.72)
4 hits: 466.67+ Mechanic time (+3=$499.67)(+2=$543.19)
5 hits: 600+ Mechanic Time (+3=$641.25)(+2=$695.65)
6 hits: 733.34+ Mechanic Time (+3=$782.84)(+2=$848.12)
7 hits: 866.67+ Mechanic Time (+3=$866.67)(+2=$1000.58)
8 hits: $1000 plus install time (+3=$1008.25)(+2=1019.13)(+1=$1031.50)(+0=$1093)

Armor Repairs are $33 per point plus mechanic time.

Replacing the whole armor kit is only $217.80... but we get to 2/3 that for doing the work ourselves, making it $145.2 plus mechanic time. Call it a nice round $173.1 for that mechanic+0 to do it.
Edit: To take Swordtart's interp, where you don't get the discount on replace armor, but don't pay the 10%, replacing the shell is $198+Mechanic Time (+3=204.88)($+2=211.5)(+1=$212.88)(+0=225.9). Comments later in thread.

If we presume my experience is accurate (which I doubt), about 1/4 of kills are PP kills†, 1/4 are driver dead, and 1/2 are weapon kills‡. Tire shots are pretty rare, as Amateurs don't often succeed at them.

Typical AN is 6 cars.

1 car needs replacing: $3900 (rounded up hundred)
5 cars needing armor repairs. Up to 3 points, repair. More than 3, replace. $865.5/AN if all replaced

2 need new engines: $2100 or so
2 more need 6 DP: $1600 or so.

3 need new MG's: $3100 or less.

All need ammo (20x25x5) $2500

A couple need tires, since the winner filled his boot with ammo and tires... Call it 8 tires: $800, plus install times...

Works out to around (10965) $11,000 per AN, since only a couple of tires will go missing.

So, if the average city is 1/3 weffies, and 1/3 of them are interested in AN, and 1/3 of those can afford the $10 ticket, we need 1100 tickets sold to pay for the cars upkeep. Which means we need at least 9900 people in the city to go. AN is actually affordable... due to large scale crowds. Keep in mind, most cities are 30K people, so you can afford 3 rounds on the AN card just from locals. And if you get corporate or TV sponsorship, add another ticket each. Keep in mind: people in 1981 paid $10+ to go see 2x 3-minute fights, spaced over 30 minutes, in boxing.

§ISTR being able to replace armor a side at a time. I'm not figuring it, tho. If I did, it's always replace except for only one hit on the front...
† The PP is dead, or the driver realizes he's next and bails when the PP is under 3 DP left of its 8. Note that I've almost never seen a PP fire in an AN, due to MG's being used most of the time. Simply presume replacement if you allow lasers or FT's...
‡ Since the MG is up front, most of the time, these also have some PP damage...


Of course, I expect mechanics often work, as they do in the real world, more like 50 hours a week, so the costs are even lower. And an arena would probably have a shop worth +3, not +2, making things even faster and cheaper.

Edit 1: I misread a ⅓ as a ˝ on page 73, rt col. Had to zoom to 200% to be able to tell it was a 3, not a 2. Caught by Swordtart.

Last edited by ak_aramis; 06-23-2012 at 12:53 PM. Reason: Addressing the math error due to a reading error - I hate the "⅓" character!
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Old 06-22-2012, 06:19 PM   #2
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Default Re: The Cost to run Amateur Night...

Shops can charge by the quote. Based on average time expected for a normal mechanic to accomplish that job.

So a Mechanic +3 and/or their shop should make lots more money then a normal mechanic for work performed, if they were making the same price for the same work. He would just complete a lot more of it.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:53 AM   #3
swordtart
 
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Default Re: The Cost to run Amateur Night...

AK:

Sorry your numbers are very wonky.

Doing repairs yourself allows you to save 1/3 of the cost not 1/2.

Replacing components does not realise the 1/3 saving. That only applies to repairs which restore DPs. In fairness the game doesn't really explore the cost of fitting components so I have assumed it is the 10% listed for retrofitting.

I allow the armour panels to be replaced by facing rather than requiring the whole shell to be replaced.

Repairs of components that have taken more than 7 DP are not economically viable as by then the repair cost would be 130% the cost of a new component. Even with the 1/3 reduction this is only a marginal saving.

I seldom see weapons partially damaged. They generally take none, or are destroyed (as people seldom chicken from a fight unless they are actually breached especially if they know the weapon and plant will be acting as damage sinks).

In your 1/4 of cases where the plant was hit 1/3 of them would catch fire and with no FE installed they would burn to the ground before pit crews could get to them (even if they'd risk it). These cars are a complete write-off (my reason for dis-recomending flame weapons of AN events).

A typical AN event is 6 cars, if there was only one event I wouldn't be paying $10 to go and watch. If you run 2 or three which might burn up 1/2 hour of what the customer is paying for your costs double or treble.

Your figures don't inlcude the running costs of the arena itself, but as that is fixed regardless of whether you run AN or conventional events it might be simpler to ignore it for the comparison with a Pro event, you cannot ignore it for arena viability costings though.

If you use the figures in the wealth section it suggests prize money in conventional events of between 50% and 150% of the total value of the vehicles involved (which seems too high to me). If we assume the median value, an event where the competitors supplied their own vehicles about 22K. I think your figures are too low, but even if they are correct a pro event is costing twice as much.

In a pro event I think you would get more sponsorship and advertising and a higher gate. Whether this offsets the higher running costs is a judgement call, but since most arena schedules (based on the setting) seem to offer more pro events that AM events I assume the Pro events bring better returns.

Last edited by swordtart; 06-23-2012 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:12 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Cost to run Amateur Night...

I didn't zoom in enough - you're right it's 1/3, not one half. Which is going to push the mechanic numbers up. I'll go revise.

Doesn't change the sloppy numbers in the analysis at all, since I'd rounded up to next hundred in most cases.

As for armor replacement - the margin is too low at full cost plus labor - especially since shop time itself is considered $50/hr (see p.73) - but note that the arena already has the shop, and the arena op costs are paid by the better (and less directly expensive to the arena) pro duels, where the majority of their costs are the prizes and the arena itself. The cost for a Division level duel is, typically, between 50 and 150% of the value of the vehicles involved (DCW, p. 53). Given a 6 or 8 vehicle cap (since most arenas in the arena listings have 6 or 8 entrances... and dropping a vehicle at Div 25 & again at 30, simply because there aren't THAT many with the money to field that kind of equipment.
Div Purse range
_5 $15K-$60K
10 $30K-$120K
15 $45K-$180K
20 $60K-$240K
25 $62.5K-$262.5K
30 $60K-$270K

That's the purse. An arena also has events, per the video game, 2-3 nights a week, more in the bigger cities, one night being Amateur Night. Practice is open typically 2-3 nights a week, and the arenas are closed a night or two a week.

Now, looking at some indoor arenas opened in 1981, 19K seats for $85M (Izod Center), 18K seats for $300M (Prudential Center), 17K seats for $97M (Scotiabank Saddledome).
Outdoor, Vanderbuilt Stadium was $10.1M for 41K seats

So we can assume a cost for a decent arena of at least $10M for no less than 20K seats... and possibly 40K seats.
1981 Savings bonds were 8.85% and 8 year maturity.
Going with 30K seat, $10M outdoor stadium arena, a 10year bond at that rate, it's paying back 233.5% of the loan. This means paying back $194,584 a month... given 12 events a month, needs to clear $16,216 an event. Plus the purse. Assuming 3 rounds a night... AN needs $33K in vehicle repairs, and we'll up that to $40K to allow for a single fire a night, plus $16,216 for the per event payment, plus 50 event staff at $20 each, plus ~ $1000 for share of full time staff. Plus at least 10% for local taxes.
so $65K for an AN evening... and filling the seats, that's a cost of $2.16 per seat.

Running a high-class ticket, 1AN, 1 Div 10, 1 Div 20, 1 div 30, $630K in prizes, $20K in staff, =$650K, plus 10% tax =$715K, and $23.83 per ticket. Probably will fill.

Also, keep in mind: I found the payment per month by (1.0E7)*(1.0885^10)/120, and the payment per event by figuring 12 events per month. I figured a 10% commercial tax figuring that the arenas are likely a significant portion of local tax bases, but also are able, thanks to biblicalism and the AADA, able to keep the rate down to something reasonable.

Last edited by ak_aramis; 06-23-2012 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 06-23-2012, 01:37 PM   #5
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Default Re: The Cost to run Amateur Night...

If you are allowing the winner to salvage his kills then you are liable to be having to replace at least one other vehicle.

I like your idea of the winner stuffing tyres and ammo in his boot. Maybe we could allow the amateur to leave with anything he can personally remove and carry (ammo, body armour, a kidney?).
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Old 06-23-2012, 02:03 PM   #6
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Default Re: The Cost to run Amateur Night...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hemlock
But I thought that the point of the Amatuer night was to kill the drivers ...

At least from the perspective of the arena management who wants to keep the cars ... if a driver is dead, he can't collect the salvaged vehicles (or the cash value of the salvaged vehicles). So the more dead drivers there are, the less the arena pays out in winnings to the survivors.

(and yes, I am evil)

Something like this one ...

Mid-sized, Standard chassis, Heavy suspension, Medium power plant w/SC, 10 pts CA (Power Plant), Fire Extinguisher, 4 Heavy-Duty tires, Driver w/BA and Ejection Seat, 2-space Turret Top w/Machine Gun w/10 pts CA, Junk Dropper Back w/10 pts CA, Roll Cage, Spoiler, Bumper Spikes (Front), Link, Composite Metal/Plastic Armor: F2/5, L2/5, R2/5, B2/5, T4/5, U0/5, 2 2-pt Wheelguards Back, 2 2-pt Wheelhubs Front, Acceleration 5, Top Speed 90, HC 3 (4 @60mph), 4537 lbs., $10320

Special notes : The Power Plant is rear mounted (not front mounted). The Link connects the MG with JD, so the driver can fire the MG and start laying down Junk. And the Ejection seat is a special modification ... the driver CANNOT activate it; only arena management personnel can fire the seat (it's an anti-theft device; and anti-mayhem feature).

It's more expensive than a Killer Kart and roughly on par with a Joeseph Special for cost ...

But the valuable components of the car (MG, and Power Plant) are likely to out last the driver (due to component armor and fire extinguisher). The bumper spikes seem to encourage ramming, as does the roll cage. but there is a large range of speeds where the driver will die long before the power plant in the target vehicle, and the rammer is likely to have his own driver smooshed. The spoiler also encourages high speeds (which lead to spectacular, high-ratings, crowd-pleasing crashes). The MG is in the heavily armored turret and protected by CA ... since most low skilled Amateurs have a hard time hitting the side armor, hitting the turret is probably a waste of ammo for them (and the armor will bounce most hits from other cars like this one).

And the armor is just thick enough to take one or two hits confidently ... but after that, anything is possible. By 'anything' the arena management means another non-payout of 'winnings' to another non-survivor. And should an Amateur driver feel like taking on the world in his borrowed vehicle ... the arena management will send him sky high ... right thru the roof.

I decided to repost this (originally oposted in Dec 2010).

The armor is cheap to replace. The two major components (MG and PP) are more likel to survive than the driver ... meaning the vehicle will survive to be salvaged by the arena management. Sure the initial outlay for the arena is higher; but the lower repair bills for the arena probably make this contraption a better long-term investment for any arena looking to run more than a few AN's.

How does it stand up to the Killer Karts you are using ?
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Old 06-23-2012, 02:11 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Cost to run Amateur Night...

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
If you are allowing the winner to salvage his kills then you are liable to be having to replace at least one other vehicle.

I like your idea of the winner stuffing tyres and ammo in his boot. Maybe we could allow the amateur to leave with anything he can personally remove and carry (ammo, body armour, a kidney?).
Actually, looking at DCW, he doesn't get to salvage his kills. He gets the salvage value of his kills - which is different...

If he gets only what he can salvage, as per Autoduel, he's got a handful of minutes, and can probably only get a few tires. If he instead gets a cash payout of the salvage value...

Each point of armor damage is $50... and you are going to be doing AT LEAST 3 armor damage. You ARE deducting more than the cost to you to repair it...

Deductions due to damage done
DPDmg __1_ __2_ __3_ __4_ __5_ _6+_
__MG: _100 _300 1100 ---- ---- ----
__PP: _100 _300 _500 _700 _900 1100
Armor __50 _100 _150 _200 _218 _218
Tire: _100 _100 _100 _100 _100 _100


So... That Mobility Kill by hitting the PP after shooting through the front and the MG... cash payout is $3848-1100-1100-218... that's an additional $1430 each. A minimum kill is a side hit alone. Let's budget an additional $11K for that payout, knowing it will vary. Cost per seat for a 3 ticket AN is then around $4.35 a seat. Adding a 100% markup, my initial guess of $10 a seat looks right reasonable.

$11K is 2.8 new Killer Karts worth of payout. assumes winner killed 3 with minimal damage. Or 5 with moderate... Minimum non-driver kill is 1250 off (3 armor and either MG or PP) for $2599 payout - 4.2 of those = $11K.

So, averaging $22K for an Amateur Night duel, including payout.
Worst case, he hits nothing but armor and drivers: salvage payout is $3698 x5, for $18490.
Best case, he killed one guy, and did so by shooting him all to ribbons... $1030.

Last edited by ak_aramis; 06-23-2012 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 06-23-2012, 02:27 PM   #8
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Default Re: The Cost to run Amateur Night...

Hemlock: ONLY THE WINNER gets paid salvage.
Per DCW, he doesn't get to salvage, he gets paid salvage value (Note that the arena can repair for about 3/4 to 4/5 the cost.)

The arena doesn't want to kill the drivers. The Crowd doesn't mind, but the arena doesn't want it.
The guys who build a rep as competent second stringers (by routinely making a kill or two) can be recruited for other events, and their prestige is in fact a crowd draw. And drivers are allowed to leave if they survive 30sec...

Note that in Autoduel, you can't enter if you have more than 30 prestige...
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Old 06-23-2012, 04:58 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Cost to run Amateur Night...

50 Event staff for 30,000 customers seems very low. My figure of 50 was based on 2000 spectators.

Using the O2 arena in London (20,000 capacity). It averages 5,000 tickets per day (based on 365 days a year). So 1/4 capacity on average. It has 2,500 staff (not including event specific staff).

Saying 100:1 staff to visitor ratio for ease and allowing for the depressed economy of CW that means you need to employ 300 staff just for cleaning, ticket offices, security, admin, transport, management, concessions and health and safety etc.

The staff of mechanics, medics and other specialists unique to autoduelling would be on top.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Cost to run Amateur Night...

I was using the staff ratios I've experienced at Sullivan Arena (8.5K seating) and the Williamson PAC, but not counting vendor staff. I'm just talking security and tickets. For Sullivan, 1 ticket man per each of the 8 entry doors, 1 for each of the 16 seating accesses, 4 in the booths, 2 on lights, 2 on sound. 2 on the big display board. 1 announcer. 1 Zamboni driver. 2-3 roving people. Event specific staff (refs, etc) are separate, as are vendors. (Mind you, Sully was built in 1978-1981, total $25M, seats 7K for hockey. The Williamson PAC, seating about 900, has a one man light board, 1-2 man sound board, 2 side ushers, two entry ushers, and two exterior ushers, plus 2 ticket booth, and a house manager floating. (Event specific staff would be the stagehands and cast... ranging from none to 250. Yes, I've seen 250 people on stage in a house that seats just over 900 audience. I was one of the 250.) 50 people on the Sully's payroll is about normal.

Vendors are best handled as contractors - both for liability reasons and for financial risk/bottom line reasons - let them rent the stall, let them assume the financial risk, and you just haul in the rent. If they fail, you let someone else try. Extra profits. Sully often has almost 50 vendor staff, 20-30 social works group members (Kiwanis, Lions, and Rotary) who sell raffle tickets.

The networks send their own staff - hockey, TV, it's 4 cameras, a producer, and a director, plus 2 on-air (No-)"talent". The producer runs the board as well as operating the 5th camera (which faces the "talent"). Radio, producer, audio, and two voice talent. BBall, they add two more cameras.

Design of the facility is going to make a difference. Also, Janitors, etc, are in the full time employees I'm talking about... the 50 are just the part timers who only work during events.
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