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Old 12-30-2010, 06:56 PM   #1
Landwalker
 
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Default [Low-Tech] Semi-Rigid Armor / Plated Mail and Armor Gaps

Another question from the inability of my mind to comprehend something on Low-Tech p.101, this time regarding the notion of how Armor Gaps tie in to rigid armor that isn't completely rigid, like Mail and Plates.

The crux of the question is this: For semi-rigid armor (like Plated Mail, Banded Mail, or Reinforced textile/leather armor), you can still purchase a piece of armor that covers a "gap-prone" hit location—for example, you can purchase Mail and Plates to cover your arm (10%)—but these particular types of armor aren't completely rigid, and consequently their "base" could (and presumably would) still cover the armor gap.

For some of these options, like Banded Mail, figuring out the "base" that covers the gaps is pretty straight-forward (since only Light Mail is eligible for this modifier, the gaps are presumably still covered by regular Light Mail; if Reinforced Armor is applied to Light Layered Cloth, the areas not covered by splints are pretty obviously still Light Layered Cloth; etc.). But some of these options are less obvious. If someone is wearing Mail and Plates on their arm, then what is the base "level" of the mail on their armpits or inner elbows? Is it Fine Mail? Heavy Mail? Even Light Mail (although I don't know why it would be)?
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Old 12-30-2010, 09:51 PM   #2
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Semi-Rigid Armor / Plated Mail and Armor Gaps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata
P. 101: Under "Arming Garments", change
do give DR
to
do give DR (treat as Light Mail, p. 107)
According to the errata thread
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Old 12-31-2010, 07:08 AM   #3
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Semi-Rigid Armor / Plated Mail and Armor Gaps

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Originally Posted by StormCrow42 View Post
According to the errata thread
That's not what I'm asking, but thank you anyway (else I would have missed that when it came time for truly rigid armor).

My question is "what mail is plated mail built on" (i.e. the parts of plated mail that don't or can't have plates)? And if the answer is "it's built on Light Mail," then that's perfectly fine. But since this isn't an arming-garment question—because it's about the baseline for an armor type, not about the arming garment worn beneath it (and arming doublets that are treated as Light Mail are TL 4 anyway, making them irrelevant for a TL 3 mail-and-plate knight).
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Old 12-31-2010, 11:11 AM   #4
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Semi-Rigid Armor / Plated Mail and Armor Gaps

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Originally Posted by Landwalker View Post
That's not what I'm asking, but thank you anyway (else I would have missed that when it came time for truly rigid armor).

My question is "what mail is plated mail built on" (i.e. the parts of plated mail that don't or can't have plates)? And if the answer is "it's built on Light Mail," then that's perfectly fine. But since this isn't an arming-garment question—because it's about the baseline for an armor type, not about the arming garment worn beneath it (and arming doublets that are treated as Light Mail are TL 4 anyway, making them irrelevant for a TL 3 mail-and-plate knight).
I'm not sure I'm following your question here - especially "Plated Mail" isn't a type of armour. So either you're taking another type of plate that's actually on the table, and putting a full suit of mail under it, or you're putting the Arming Doublet under it, and effectively only putting Light mail under the gaps in your plate.
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Old 12-31-2010, 11:12 AM   #5
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Semi-Rigid Armor / Plated Mail and Armor Gaps

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I'm not sure I'm following your question here - especially "Plated Mail" isn't a type of armour. So either you're taking another type of plate that's actually on the table, and putting a full suit of mail under it, or you're putting the Arming Doublet under it, and effectively only putting Light mail under the gaps in your plate.
I believe he's talking about Mail and Plates armour.
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Old 12-31-2010, 11:52 AM   #6
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Semi-Rigid Armor / Plated Mail and Armor Gaps

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I believe he's talking about Mail and Plates armour.
This is correct. Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 12-31-2010, 01:11 PM   #7
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Semi-Rigid Armor / Plated Mail and Armor Gaps

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Originally Posted by Landwalker View Post
This is correct. Sorry for the confusion.
Ah. OK, if it's not flexible, and it's not rigid, you use the usual Chinks in Armor rules, and it's half DR.
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Old 12-31-2010, 02:28 PM   #8
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Semi-Rigid Armor / Plated Mail and Armor Gaps

The mail and plates typology is an Oriental armour. It was used in India, Persia, Turkey, Russia, even the Philippines, but not in Western Europe. "Plated Mail" is another term for it.
Here are some images.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zbroja_lamelkowa1.jpg
http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...tion/1940.8.2/
http://www.turkishculture.org/pictur...hp?ImageID=428
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...ontandback.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...ard_17th_c.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9582/armor9zh5.jpg

You can build it just the same as any other type of armour. You use the stats for mail and plates on some parts of the body, which would be subject to armour chinks. And you use stats for regular mail (any type) for the rest, which is designated as flexible (*), and so has no chinks. Only flexible armour can cover the areas specified in Harsh Realism - Armour Gaps on p. 101. Mail and Plates is not flexible. Look at the above photos for historical applications of this type of armour.

Last edited by DanHoward; 12-31-2010 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 12-31-2010, 03:03 PM   #9
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Semi-Rigid Armor / Plated Mail and Armor Gaps

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
The mail and plates typology is an Oriental armour. It was used in India, Persia, Turkey, Russia, even the Philippines, but not in Western Europe. "Plated Mail" is another term for it.
This is actually why I was using Plated Mail — it seemed interchangeable based on what I'd read, and it was easier to type repeatedly.

So, it looks like the answer is just "Even if you buy Mail and Plates for the arms, nothing (including whatever mail the Mail and Plates is "based on") is covering the gaps. Non-gap chinks use, well, the chinks rules (half DR, so I guess that would be DR 3, or equivalent to Light Mail after all).

This raises two related follow-up questions:

1) If mail and plates doesn't actually cover all of the arm, does it still have the same "location multiplier" (50%), or is the multiplier reduced to account for the fact that the whole location is not protected?

2) Can one buy "connector pieces" to cover the gap locations? For example, if Mail and Plates doesn't cover the armpit and inner elbow, can one just buy Heavy Mail "connections" that attach to the Mail and Plates in such a way to cover those gaps without actually being an extra layer of armor? Would this basically be, for the sake of simplicity, 50% (basically the "front and back" rules flipped around to be "the inside and outside") of the locational multiplier (so 5% for the armpits, 2.5% for the inner elbow and inner knee)? Going back to Question 1, would this same percentage be subtracted from the multiplier for the rigid armor part? (I.e. Mail and Plates on the arm would have a location multiplier of [50-5-2.5 = ] 42.5% of Torso Base?)
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Old 12-31-2010, 03:12 PM   #10
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Semi-Rigid Armor / Plated Mail and Armor Gaps

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Originally Posted by Landwalker View Post
So, it looks like the answer is just "Even if you buy Mail and Plates for the arms, nothing (including whatever mail the Mail and Plates is "based on") is covering the gaps.
How is this any different to all of the other non-flexible armour types?

Quote:
1) If mail and plates doesn't actually cover all of the arm, does it still have the same "location multiplier" (50%), or is the multiplier reduced to account for the fact that the whole location is not protected?
Depends on how much realism and how much book-keeping you want. Personally I'd just use the percentages in the hit location table and put up with the slight increase in weight.

Quote:
2) Can one buy "connector pieces" to cover the gap locations? For example, if Mail and Plates doesn't cover the armpit and inner elbow, can one just buy Heavy Mail "connections" that attach to the Mail and Plates in such a way to cover those gaps without actually being an extra layer of armor? Would this basically be, for the sake of simplicity, 50% (basically the "front and back" rules flipped around to be "the inside and outside") of the locational multiplier (so 5% for the armpits, 2.5% for the inner elbow and inner knee)? Going back to Question 1, would this same percentage be subtracted from the multiplier for the rigid armor part? (I.e. Mail and Plates on the arm would have a location multiplier of [50-5-2.5 = ] 42.5% of Torso Base?)
Sounds reasonable if your players are happy with this level of detail. I know my players wouldn't be.
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