What Do You Want In A Dungeon?

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

If you have a series of rooms in which the party simply slaughters all the monsters from the manuals in alphabetical order and takes all their treasure, you won't have nearly as much fun as when you suddenly encounter a little old hermit guarding a golden tree whose fruits glow with a pale light, and who gives you a riddle explaining the purpose of the tree. Can you figure out the riddle? Do you try eating the fruit? Do you kill the old man? Is he really just an old man? These are the sorts of encounters players will remember.

QFT. (Though I also agree with zuljita that combat is not a last resort for many players.)

I love memorable situations and NPCs. I love a great map. I love being surprised when I open the door. I love unexpected terrain: glowing mushroom caverns, rope bridges over chasms, houses (or cities) built into giant stalactites, weird gravity, invisible stairs, talking rocks (or slugs or smoke), ... magical and fantastical locations to explore and interact with. I love it when the vertical dimension is referenced, especially in a dungeon (levels with various connections, multi-story rooms, etc.) Add funky monsters and it's good times.

As for length, I'm good with anything. Vignettes are great. I used to enjoy those "Book of Lairs" types of things with basically fully worked random encounters or mini-dungeons. Easy to drop into a larger game. But I definitely don't turn my nose up at epic adventure paths either.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Dalin

As for length, I'm good with anything. Vignettes are great.

Heh. I worked the preamble and history for Lost Hall of Tyr (a 5e adventure designed as a convention one-shot and demo of my Dungeon Grappling book) into a vignette type story, and was accused of being a wannabee failed writer novelist in a recent review of the book.

Different tastes, I guess.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I worked the preamble and history for Lost Hall of Tyr (a 5e adventure designed as a convention one-shot and demo of my Dungeon Grappling book) into a vignette type story, and was accused of being a wannabee failed writer novelist in a recent review of the book.

Different tastes, I guess.

It's a hopelessly divisive issue.

There are people who believe games and fiction are different facets of the same stone. They usually feel that games are better with some fiction in them, and/or that games are a good basis for novels, and/or that novels are good to adapt into games.

Then there are people who feel that games and fiction are media as different as music and sculpture.

Over the past 23 years working in this biz, I've run into both. You can't make 'em all happy.

[(E)]

While a nebulous kind of concept I like to have a sense that a dungeon is either a stale and static place lying unexplored since whenever or is alternatively an active place with things happening unrelated to the delvers.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Kromm

It's a hopelessly divisive issue.

There are people who believe games and fiction are different facets of the same stone. They usually feel that games are better with some fiction in them, and/or that games are a good basis for novels, and/or that novels are good to adapt into games.

Then there are people who feel that games and fiction are media as different as music and sculpture.

Over the past 23 years working in this biz, I've run into both. You can't make 'em all happy.

Yah.

I'll cop to the fact that I didn't give a "skip cutscene" button that's a summary for folks that just don't care to get the salient bits. I could rework that if I ever revisit the module for a different system (like my own Dragon Heresy).

In fairness to me, though, the vignette I wrote was designed to be jammed into a two hour play session at GenCon 50. I needed to set the tone of the world, prep the stage for the players to go wandering off into the wilds, and establish some of the good guys and bad guys. And I needed to do it FAST, because I only had two hours to play.

The vignette said:

Vikings! Tyr! Faeries! Goblins! Quest! fairly quickly.

Eh. We shall see!

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

In fairness to me, though, the vignette I wrote was designed to be jammed into a two hour play session at GenCon 50. I needed to set the tone of the world, prep the stage for the players to go wandering off into the wilds, and establish some of the good guys and bad guys. And I needed to do it FAST, because I only had two hours to play.

The vignette said:

Vikings! Tyr! Faeries! Goblins! Quest! fairly quickly.

Eh. We shall see!

Oh, I'm not anti-vignette! I just have limited skill at writing them. See my vignettes in GURPS Martial Arts for what I mean . . . I'm not sure how good those really are. To swerve back on topic: For a dungeon, a vignette that can be read to the players is a really nice scene-setting tool.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Oh, I'm not anti-vignette! I just have limited skill at writing them. See my vignettes in GURPS Martial Arts for what I mean . . . I'm not sure how good those really are. To swerve back on topic: For a dungeon, a vignette that can be read to the players is a really nice scene-setting tool.

I was more agreeing with your "hopelessly divisive" point, and using a recent (brutal) bit of feedback as an example.

I think a evocative description, written with the most noticeable stuff first1], is important and useful. I can also see where folks want to do their own thing, but if I'm writing something for folks to buy, I guess I see it as my job to bring as much color to the board as possible.




[1] The walls have tapestries on them filled with scenes of battle, and an overturned stool in front of a broken table seems to be made of alternating woods, maple and oak. Oh, and there's a minotaur named Bruno trying to impale you with her horns.

Um, bury the lede there? :-)

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Oh, I'm not anti-vignette! I just have limited skill at writing them. See my vignettes in GURPS Martial Arts for what I mean . . . I'm not sure how good those really are.

I liked 'em. The vignettes are sometimes my favorite parts of a game book.

But then I'm guilty of only reading the vignettes in almost all of the Shadowrun 5e books, having no real desire to play SR5, but wanting to keep up with the stories about the NPCs...

[David Johansen]

Good vingettes are good and bad vingettes are bad. All told, I think you should put them in if you have a good little story to tell and leave them out if you think you need one because it's supposed to be there.

[Carnifex]

If you want good examples, take a look at the work being done by M.T. Black for D&D 5E, his dungeons are fun and interesting. I especially recommend Magic Village for Sale, Wizard in a Bottle and Into the ivy Mansion.

http://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=M.T.%20Black