Backstab - what is it good for?

[Kalzazz]

I am having a hard time figuring use for Backstab

The result seems to be the squishy thief hero becomes behind the closest enemy and does very mean things to it, possibly fatally

Then the thief is near all the other enemies and gets mauled

[A Ladder]

In one instance, yes, they would get mauled. But you have to think of other scenarios.

Let's say you have an Evil Necromancer with his zombie minions. He sends the minions crashing into the front line of the PCs heavy fighters. The Thief can Backstab the Necromancer and since the minions are engaged with the heavies the Thief doesn't get squished.

Let's say you have a lone sentry. The thief can take this guy out quickly, easily, and most importantly, silently. Also, not squished.

Let's say you have a long chain of monsters filing down towards the PCs. Thief takes out the back one and then hides again. The monsters are none the wiser. Ergo, thief is not squished again.

I think it's OK for the GM to allow the thief to silently take out foes in the back row and give the monsters Perception rolls to notice. With luck and timing and tactics the thief can be an angel of death before the monsters notice. If you and your drooling, bloodlust companions go charging into melee against some intruders. Will you be noticing the not-bellowing, not-shiny, skinny guy in the back who's stabbing your buddy who is ten yards away from you? Not all the time.

[Kromm]

Even in a pitched battle, remember that the thief ends up behind the nearest foe, so if that foe falls down, the thief ought to be looking right at his own allies, because there should be no foes between the defeated one and the good guys. Moreover, it's attacking that reveals the thief's presence, and there's no obligation to attack at once . . . the thief's "first attack" needn't be the opening attack of the battle or even occur on the thief's first turn. Thus, a thief who makes the Stealth roll is effectively invisible behind enemies until the time is right to strike (or the GM says "Enough is enough!" and insists on action). This lets the thief act when it would be safest.

Which said, this trick is at +5 in an ambush (offsetting the basic -5) for good reason: It's mostly meant for ambushes. And in ambushes, Surprise Attacks (Exploits, pp. 26-27) normally applies. Which means the enemy will suffer from mental stun. Which, if the thief attacks right away, means wasting at least one turn after the thief attacks taking a Do Nothing maneuver. During this turn, the thief can be running to safety!

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Which said, this trick is at +5 in an ambush (offsetting the basic -5)

Side point: why is it written as "basic -5, +5 when ambushing, no modifier in a stand-up fight, -5 if ambushed" instead of "no modifier when ambushing, -5 in a stand-up fight, -10 if ambushed"?

Incidentally, backstabbing is hardly limited to thieves. Sure, they're better at it, but barbarians, knights, and martial artists, and swashbucklers all have enough stealth to have a decent chance at doing it and would find it useful to do so.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Side point: why is it written as "basic -5, +5 when ambushing, no modifier in a stand-up fight, -5 if ambushed" instead of "no modifier when ambushing, -5 in a stand-up fight, -10 if ambushed"?

That comes from the GURPS implementation, and is intended to present an easy target for technique design (i.e., defaults to Stealth-5 and cannot be raised higher than Stealth). I agree that 0/-5/-10 would be better than -5 + +5/0/-5 in this case. Ah, well.

[Jarl Wilm]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Incidentally, backstabbing is hardly limited to thieves. Sure, they're better at it, but barbarians, knights, and martial artists, and swashbucklers all have enough stealth to have a decent chance at doing it and would find it useful to do so.

Dear Dr. Kromm:

This is something I've been puzzling over. I'm a long-time RPGer, new to GURPS and DFRPG. I haven't found anything in the GURPS rules that corresponds to the backstabbing rules in Exploits pp. 57-8. I see the same surprise-mental stun rules, and the minus for defending against an attack from behind, but not the +4 for the "perfectly set up" attack. Suppose you don't have anyone else acting as a distraction; you're just one thief sneaking up on a sentry, or one bugbear trying to garrote a lone delver in the soloquest I'm writing. Hypothetical bugbear has an 18 Garrote, with a -5 for aiming at the neck; against a lone delver he'll probably get surprise. Can the bugbear get the +4 for Backstabbing, giving him (18-5)+4=17 to hit the neck? Or does this +4 only apply when the target is distracted by another person, or only apply to delvers?

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by Jarl Wilm

Dear Dr. Kromm:

This is something I've been puzzling over. I'm a long-time RPGer, new to GURPS and DFRPG. I haven't found anything in the GURPS rules that corresponds to the backstabbing rules in Exploits pp. 57-8. I see the same surprise-mental stun rules, and the minus for defending against an attack from behind, but not the +4 for the "perfectly set up" attack. Suppose you don't have anyone else acting as a distraction; you're just one thief sneaking up on a sentry, or one bugbear trying to garrote a lone delver in the soloquest I'm writing. Hypothetical bugbear has an 18 Garrote, with a -5 for aiming at the neck; against a lone delver he'll probably get surprise. Can the bugbear get the +4 for Backstabbing, giving him (18-5)+4=17 to hit the neck? Or does this +4 only apply when the target is distracted by another person, or only apply to delvers?

I'm pretty sure that, in GURPS, the +4 corresponds to what GURPS:Martial Arts calls a "telegraphic attack". This rule lets you take +4 to hit in exchange for giving your opponent +2 to defend, so, if your opponent can't defend at all, you can claim a "free" +4 to hit.

[Colarmel]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I am having a hard time figuring use for Backstab

The result seems to be the squishy thief hero becomes behind the closest enemy and does very mean things to it, possibly fatally

Then the thief is near all the other enemies and gets mauled

I think maybe the trick here is to wait until the battle has been joined, then jump into the back of it.

[tanksoldier]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I am having a hard time figuring use for Backstab

The result seems to be the squishy thief hero becomes behind the closest enemy and does very mean things to it, possibly fatally

Then the thief is near all the other enemies and gets mauled

If that’s the ONLY way you can think of to play it then you probably shouldn’t play a backstabbing thief type.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by tanksoldier

If that’s the ONLY way you can think of to play it then you probably shouldn’t play a backstabbing thief type.

The trick when playing a backstabbing thief is not to play a squishy thief. Backstabbers are still warriors of a sort, and character-creation choices should reflect this.

You definitely want to think about investing in Combat Reflexes and Enhanced Dodge . . . worry about damage-boosters like Expert Backstabbing and Weapon Master (Knives) later on. Your priority at the campaign outset is to survive; you don't advance any faster if you do more damage, and you don't advance at all if you die! Also look at the "blade and shield" melee package, so you'll have better defenses. And think about using quirk points for a combination of higher weapon skills and cash for light-but-good armor.