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Old 03-23-2018, 12:20 PM   #31
Algarik
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Trois-Rivières, QC, Canada
Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

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Originally Posted by Culture20 View Post
Big things don’t have to have big DR. Big HP can be enough to make a threat last, but allow sword wielding players to win. Bonus points if they realize they can strike vitals etc easier on larger targets.
To keep gun use low, use large numbers of opponents. Assuming TL4-5, one or two shots before the enemy is in melee range, and reloads take time! Same issue as crossbows, really.
With the idea i have in mind i think guns will be more useful vs big creature, and it kind makes sense not wanting to get into melee with things SM 3+. I'm thinking of giving technologies for melee weapon to have better DR divisor. That should make them useful vs armored oponents.

And yeah for Tl 4-5 guns aren't really an issue and to be fair they are quite useful, but after the first shot they generally get useless. I was refering to higher TL 6+, with settings like Shadowrun & Warhammer in mind, sorry if i wasn't clear enough. But still thanks for your advice!

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Originally Posted by Lord Azagthoth View Post
I've seen quite a few street fights which only last for a few seconds, some even didn't make it past the first second.
Anthony beat me to it, but yeah it depends on the battle. Some fights are really quick but some can take minutes because oponents doesn't fully engage in more than a 1 or 2 blow exchange and doesn't manage to hit their opponent. And their is still the whole free ''enchanced time sense'' when it comes to decision making, i'm sure players wouldn't make half as good decisions if i'd let them 1 second to think about their round, but that would be a little bit extreme :P
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Old 03-23-2018, 02:42 PM   #32
starslayer
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

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Originally Posted by Algarik View Post
.
- Guns damage. I get it guns are better than swords, and they should be, but i never found any support for mixing both in an effective way. (Maybe i'm just bad at searching).
Use lower TL guns, select a TL where the calvary charge was still a valid tactical option to make swords very comparable to guns, put things at TL6 and armour is still a valid defense against bullets, but mobility is important, and a high speed stealthy swordsman stands a chance.

A lot of games make the horrific assumption that somehow modern guns are barely better or no better than a sword, which is madness. If you want guns that are not better than swords use technology that was actually no better than swords.
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Old 03-23-2018, 03:19 PM   #33
Algarik
 
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
Use lower TL guns, select a TL where the calvary charge was still a valid tactical option to make swords very comparable to guns, put things at TL6 and armour is still a valid defense against bullets, but mobility is important, and a high speed stealthy swordsman stands a chance.
I'd say TL 6 is too late for effective calvalry, WW1 showed us clear example of that and that's pretty much around this era that melee dropped off, it wasn't a valid tactic on a battlefield anymore. Without rule modification i wouldn't got much farther than TL 5 to keep melee weapon somewhat competitive.

I realized i wasn't clear and should have specified i was talking about TL 6+, i apologize for my lack of precision.

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
A lot of games make the horrific assumption that somehow modern guns are barely better or no better than a sword, which is madness. If you want guns that are not better than swords use technology that was actually no better than swords.
Madness? Yes probably, but games aren't always made to reflect 100% reality. It's fine for the basic game to have gun outclassing melee weapon in most fashion, but i was mostly disappointing with the lack of support for other type of cinematic genre that mix blade and guns at higher TL.

Like i said earlier, i'll probably use guns 2 TL lower than appropriate TL and be sure to implement high TL melee weapon supercience enchancement like vibroblade, plasma sword and stuff like this. Is this realistic? Hardly. Fun? Well to me it look fun :)
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Old 03-23-2018, 10:59 PM   #34
starslayer
 
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

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Originally Posted by Algarik View Post
I'd say TL 6 is too late for effective calvalry, WW1 showed us clear example of that and that's pretty much around this era that melee dropped off, it wasn't a valid tactic on a battlefield anymore. Without rule modification i wouldn't got much farther than TL 5 to keep melee weapon somewhat competitive.

I realized i wasn't clear and should have specified i was talking about TL 6+, i apologize for my lack of precision.
You seem to have mixed up two statements I made into one.

If you want swords to be relevant against guns, lower the TL.
1. Set the TL to where the calvary charge was still a good idea to keep swords on par with guns
2. Set the TL to ~6 to keep swords/armour able to compete with (but inferior) to guns.

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Originally Posted by Algarik View Post
Madness? Yes probably, but games aren't always made to reflect 100% reality. It's fine for the basic game to have gun outclassing melee weapon in most fashion, but i was mostly disappointing with the lack of support for other type of cinematic genre that mix blade and guns at higher TL.

Like i said earlier, i'll probably use guns 2 TL lower than appropriate TL and be sure to implement high TL melee weapon supercience enchancement like vibroblade, plasma sword and stuff like this. Is this realistic? Hardly. Fun? Well to me it look fun :)
Most 'modern' and 'sci-fi' settings that involve swords and guns are not actually modern or future-tech weapons; they normally top out at age of sail with sci-fi window dressing.

Star wars is a great example of this; based on RoF, accuracy, and damage Star wars blasters are probably best represented with TL 5-6 arms, you want to blend together guns and laser swords like star wars, just be sure to tell your players that while 'blaster' is a thing its really just a fancy wrapper on a revolver.
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Old 03-24-2018, 01:16 PM   #35
Algarik
 
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
You seem to have mixed up two statements I made into one.
Oh sorry about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
If you want swords to be relevant against guns, lower the TL.
1. Set the TL to where the calvary charge was still a good idea to keep swords on par with guns
2. Set the TL to ~6 to keep swords/armour able to compete with (but inferior) to guns.
Yeah that's probably the best way to do it, although Ultra tech seem to offer extra melee weapon option such as vibroblade, monocellular blade, plasma blade, etc, which is weird from a realistic point of view if those weapon can't compete with guns at all. Maybe those were designed to get better tactical knife, i don't know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
Most 'modern' and 'sci-fi' settings that involve swords and guns are not actually modern or future-tech weapons; they normally top out at age of sail with sci-fi window dressing.

Star wars is a great example of this; based on RoF, accuracy, and damage Star wars blasters are probably best represented with TL 5-6 arms, you want to blend together guns and laser swords like star wars, just be sure to tell your players that while 'blaster' is a thing its really just a fancy wrapper on a revolver.
Yeah i couldn't agree with that, Star Wars is probably around 6 + space. That could be how i end up doing my starfinder game, i'm not sure yet.

Still thanks for the advice!
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Old 03-25-2018, 05:24 AM   #36
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

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Originally Posted by Lord Azagthoth View Post
I've seen quite a few street fights which only last for a few seconds, some even didn't make it past the first second.
Yes, hand-to-hand fights which last more than a few seconds require the technology and environment to be just right (fists vs. prepared people wearing street clothes, spears vs. a full harness, skilled fighters behind big shields in line who don't want to die, two fencers with sword alone whose skills are perfectly matched and don't make any mistakes early on). GURPS is great at most serious fights, but not the rare ones which last for tens of seconds or minutes.
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Old 03-25-2018, 11:03 AM   #37
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

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Star Wars is hardly realistic, though. :)
I like Star Wars (episodes IV, V, and VI at least), but it's not realistic and not intended to be. At its heart it's not science fiction it's fantasy. It comes complete with a feisty princess, a thief with a heart of gold, the wise wizard/mentor, the farm boy who learns to use a sword, a few non-human companions, and even the "black knight." It's fantasy in sci fi clothing.

"A long time ago in a <strike>galaxy</strike> kingdom far, far away...."
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Old 03-25-2018, 12:44 PM   #38
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Yes, hand-to-hand fights which last more than a few seconds require the technology and environment to be just right.
Correction: hand to hand fights which involve more than a few seconds of actively attacking require special circumstances. Most of the time spent during a fight is not spent attacking, it's spent observing and maneuvering.
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Old 03-25-2018, 09:43 PM   #39
Lord Azagthoth
 
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

In my Star Wars previous campaign, I divided the range (and the cost) of blaster (and other ultra-tech small arms weapons) by ten.

As for the street fights, there is no time to Evaluate or dancing around. You strike first, fast and often as you can and disable your opponent before one of his friends attacks you in the back. If one had time to Evaluate, it was before the fight even started and probably without his opponent's knowledge there was a fight to come.

The time when there were weapons involved (broken beerglasses, knuckledusters) the fights only lasted for one punch (or when he misses, he gets smothered within a few seconds, without breaks, without mercy).

The only thing preventing in GURPS to do this is because there's quite a penalty for strikes to the head which don't quite measure up in real life (at least not for punching).
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Old 03-25-2018, 10:25 PM   #40
cdru
 
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

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Originally Posted by Lord Azagthoth View Post
The only thing preventing in GURPS to do this is because there's quite a penalty for strikes to the head which don't quite measure up in real life (at least not for punching).
Don't forget about All-Out Attack (Determined). If you're using Martial Arts, Telegraphic Attack should also be used
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