GURPS Lensman - TS and TL

[maximara]

While Tech Stages (TS) can roughly convert to Tech Levels, GURPS Lensman 1st e treated TS as if it was TL with regards to penalties. For example, TS 2 and 3 are effectively the same TL (6+2) but are -5 going from TS 2 to 3 and -1 going from TS 3 to 2.

So how do you easily convert between the two?

What would Star Trek (TL9 or TL(6+3)^ depending on your interpretation) be on the TS scale? Star Wars (TL8^)? AD&D Spelljammer (TL4^ to TL(4+4)^)?

Also did GURPS Lensman 2nd edition change this?

[weby]

The technology stages do not correspond well to any TLs so you cannot convert between them directly. Different tech assumptions create different tech trees. UT has very different assumptions than Lensman.

Take Transportation and communication: TS 0 is TL 6-8 and maybe TL 9. But interplanetary flight from TS 2 might happen in TL 9 if Elon Musk succeeds and Suborbital Rocket shuttles of TS 1 will come later...

But starwars(Gurps 4e TL 11^) has a lot of TS 3 technology, but not all of it,.

Star Trek(Gurps 4e TL 12^) has also a lot of TS 3 technology and disintegrators that correspond to much higher TS.

Spelljammer is mostly negative TS at they do not have much of the technologies of even TS 0.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by weby

The technology stages do not correspond well to any TLs so you cannot convert between them directly.

Uhhh... GURPS Lensman 1st E gives you this:

"An extremely rough correlation can be forced between Tech Stages and Level. Tech Stage 0 is equivalent to Tech Level 6, and TS 1 is approximately TL7. Stages 2 and 3 could be compared to TL8, though the GURPS Tech Level does not account for allotropic iron as a power source. Then Stage 4 is slightly analogous to TL 9 and 5 to 10. but then all of Tech Stages 6 though 8 must be lumped into TL 11. Finally stages 9-10 could be called TL12." (pg 66)

GURPS Steampunk (which came out after GURPS Lensman) changed all this with its TL(x+y) system which not only portrays alternative TL but superscience TL as well.

So you would have a totally realistic drug like Aspirin and a superscience drug like Atavismine (a devolution drug; effectively what happens in Monster on the Campus (1956). Likely inspired by the Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde novel.) both listed as TL(5+1).

Sadly this was carried over into 4e GURPS and so TL6^ and TL(5+1) can both be superscience TL or the later a realistic alternate TL. It's a mess.

Originally Posted by weby

Different tech assumptions create different tech trees. UT has very different assumptions than Lensman.

Which thanks to GURPS Steampunk and 4e's superscience is rendered irrelevant to the issue at hand. As a TL(6+x) setting Lensman being on a different tech path is a given. That is the whole point of a TL(x+y) which it why I took care to update information from GURPS Lensman pg 66 to be GURPS Steampunk (and 4e) compliant:

Originally Posted by maximara

While Tech Stages (TS) can roughly convert to Tech Levels, GURPS Lensman 1st e treated TS as if it was TL with regards to penalties. For example, TS 2 and 3 are effectively the same TL (6+2) but are -5 going from TS 2 to 3 and -1 going from TS 3 to 2.

That TL (6+2) is key. It shows a different TL path from "normal" TL8. It also denotes possible superscience.

The Nautilus of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (advanced submarine, GURPS Steampunk pg 80) uses cinematic sodium/mercury batteries which it must return to base to recharge. In GURPS 3e advanced submarine was listed TL(5+1) but it is unclear if under GURPS 4e it would still be that TL. Moreover some people have retconned the Nautilus to having nuclear power (TL7) making advanced submarine TL(5+2) or a TL7 oddball. This means that depending on how one views advanced submarine it could be TL5^, TL(5+1), or TL7 (or should that be TL(5+2)^?).

Originally Posted by weby

Take Transportation and communication: TS 0 is TL 6-8 and maybe TL 9. But interplanetary flight from TS 2 might happen in TL 9 if Elon Musk succeeds and Suborbital Rocket shuttles of TS 1 will come later...

GURPS 4e gave use the concept of Split technologies ie TLPrimary (fields, TLSecondary). Example: TL8 (Communications TL7, Medical TL9) so this isn't too much a problem unless it is really common.

Originally Posted by weby

But starwars(Gurps 4e TL 11^) has a lot of TS 3 technology, but not all of it,.

Star Trek(Gurps 4e TL 12^) has also a lot of TS 3 technology and disintegrators that correspond to much higher TS.

Spelljammer is mostly negative TS at they do not have much of the technologies of even TS 0.

The problem with all these settings is they involve superscience ie things that (as far as we know) involve a violation of physics. As a result where the TL falls is debatable.

In fact, Britannica-5 has antimatter bombs which in theory should put it at weapons TL10, but it is listed as TL5^ (GURPS Infinite Worlds-Lost Worlds pg 6)

Note what TLs I gave Star Trek, Star Wars, and Spelljammer:

Originally Posted by maximara

What would Star Trek (TL9 or TL(6+3)^ depending on your interpretation) be on the TS scale? Star Wars (TL8^)? AD&D Spelljammer (TL4^ to TL(4+4)^)?

In fact, if you look at the many alternate realities provided in GURPS you quickly see how the TL system itself can break down.

For example, take Azoth-7, which is able to do fast interstellar travel putting them on par with TS3. They are listed as TL(4+2) (TL4^ space and weapons)

Etheria is able to do interplanetary travel (Mercury, Mars and Venus at least) which is TS2. Its TL is TL(5+1)^ (etheric spacecraft, TL5^) (STM127-129, Lost Worlds 5-6)

AD&D Spelljammer is also able do interplanetary travel (TS2) based on "superscience" and so can be either TL4^ or TL(4+4)^. Both TLs are valid interpretations of the setting and both are on par with TS2.

GURPS Lensman is clearly a TL(6+x)^ setting but how much of that is in the x+y and ^ parts of the TL? Ie where is the baseline?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

Uhhh... GURPS Lensman 1st E gives you this:

"An extremely rough correlation can be forced between Tech Stages and Level. Tech Stage 0 is equivalent to Tech Level 6, and TS 1 is approximately TL7. Stages 2 and 3 could be compared to TL8, though the GURPS Tech Level does not account for allotropic iron as a power source. Then Stage 4 is slightly analogous to TL 9 and 5 to 10. but then all of Tech Stages 6 though 8 must be lumped into TL 11. Finally stages 9-10 could be called TL12." (pg 66)

When Gurps Lensman said this it was wrong. It was a fine book for flavor but quite bad about technical details. See the "GP Armor" made out of BPC and with powered ST as just one example. Only one suit of armor in the Lensman series ever had a powered drivetrain.

Lensman really doesn't mesh well with any Gurps TL scale even the larger one used by 3e. For example in Triplanetary we see force screens on big ships (TL11 in Ve2) and personal suits of armor (a TL13 development in UT for 3e) yet many more of the elements of those TL are missing.

Even just looking at the simple list of TL benchmarks in Basic #e they are all over the place. The Lensman series has:

Fast FTL radio (TL11) First Lensman.

Tractor Beams (TL11 Triplanetary.

Cosmic Power (TL15) Galactic Patrol.

Faster-than-light travel (TL10 in Ve2) Triplanetary

Planetary Missiles (TL13) Grey Lensman. This is probably an anomaly. such things are never mentioned again in 3e and would probably require a higher TL.

Total Conversion (TL14) Also Grey Lensman but note that that this tech appears _after_ Cosmic Power.

Regeneration (TL12) Gray Lensman but this is a less powerful than the Philips Treatment.

So there you have TL6+4 to 6+9 with superscience all over the place and scattered pretty randomly.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

When Gurps Lensman said this it was wrong. It was a fine book for flavor but quite bad about technical details. See the "GP Armor" made out of BPC and with powered ST as just one example. Only one suit of armor in the Lensman series ever had a powered drivetrain.

Lensman really doesn't mesh well with any Gurps TL scale even the larger one used by 3e. For example in Triplanetary we see force screens on big ships (TL11 in Ve2) and personal suits of armor (a TL13 development in UT for 3e) yet many more of the elements of those TL are missing

Which is why the TL system got a major overhaul in GURPS 4e. The 3e also used end dates for TL...which was another bad idea 4e dropped.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Even just looking at the simple list of TL benchmarks in Basic #e they are all over the place.

The GURPS 3e TL scale had problems; like changes to the TL system being squirreled in other books like Steampunk.

For example, take the Etheria setting where manned interplanetary travel exists between Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars. This would be normally TL8 in the 3e TL scale but Etheria was TL(5+1) in 3e and in 4e became TL(5+1)^ (etheric spacecraft, TL5^).

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The Lensman series has:

Fast FTL radio (TL11) First Lensman.

FTL in general got put into the got superscience category making it independent of the normal GURPS TL system in 4e. In 3e it was possible in a TL(5+1) world as wireless communication were not limited by the speed of light - Steampunk 96

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Tractor Beams (TL11 Triplanetary.

Possible with Gravity and antigravity beams which are TL(5+1) - Steampunk 99

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Cosmic Power (TL15) Galactic Patrol.

Cosmic Power got put into the superscience category making it independent of the normal GURPS TL system in 4e. This is why Jotunheim (GURPS Infinite Worlds-Lost Worlds pg 10) where cosmic energy effectively replaces atomic power is TL7^.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Faster-than-light travel (TL10 in Ve2) Triplanetary

FTL anything got put into the superscience category totally divocing it from the normal TL scale.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Planetary Missiles (TL13) Grey Lensman. This is probably an anomaly. such things are never mentioned again in 3e and would probably require a higher TL.

No they wouldn't anymore then Britannica-5 having antimatter bombs makes its weapons TL10 in 4e. It is TL5^.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Total Conversion (TL14) Also Grey Lensman but note that that this tech appears _after_ Cosmic Power.

Total Conversion is another thing relegated to the superscience category in 4e.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Regeneration (TL12) Gray Lensman but this is a less powerful than the Philips Treatment.

So there you have TL6+4 to 6+9 with superscience all over the place and scattered pretty randomly.

As shown by the above it is more of a mess in 4e's TL system.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

it is more of a mess in 4e's TL system.

Can you explain what your question is or even what you are griping about?

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Can you explain what your question is or even what you are griping about?

So how do you easily convert between the two (ie GURPS Lensman TS and GURPS 4e TL)?

To over simplify, what goes into the TL(6+x) category and what goes into the ^ category

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

So how do you easily convert between the two (ie GURPS Lensman TS and GURPS 4e TL)?

To over simplify, what goes into the TL(6+x) category and what goes into the ^ category

You don't easily convert between the two. You pick a TL/TS for game mechanical purposes at the beginning of the campaign and stick with it. For a 4e Lensman this might as well be TL6+6^.

Note also that ^ only means that such a technology can be placed at whatever TL the GM wishes but the item then has a TL. ^ does not mean no TL.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

You don't easily convert between the two. You pick a TL/TS for game mechanical purposes at the beginning of the campaign and stick with it. For a 4e Lensman this might as well be TL6+6^.

Note also that ^ only means that such a technology can be placed at whatever TL the GM wishes but the item then has a TL. ^ does not mean no TL.

I never said the "^" means no TL. In fact, it is clear from Basic Set that "^" is its own TL (B514)

The issue with the TS vs TL system is it effectively puts a kabash on the whole "Universal" part of GURPS. If you want to have Lensman interact with any other setting what the TL/TS works out to matters.

It is even more of a headache when you have it interacting with other superscience settings like Star Trek or Star Wars. Just what TS does a Galaxy starship equate to? Or a Death Star? What about the Galactics of Uplift?

[VonKatzen]

Originally Posted by maximara

It is even more of a headache when you have it interacting with other superscience settings like Star Trek or Star Wars. Just what TS does a Galaxy starship equate to? Or a Death Star? What about the Galactics of Uplift?

Heh, trying to get Star Trek and Star Wars on the same TL scale is pretty bizarre. Star Wars ships are much faster, but a lot of Star Trek technology is way better. Star Wars hand weapons seem vastly inferior, but it's hard to say how their ship weapons stack up...and both of them have very inconsistent tech in general. Even without worrying about GURPS rules most science fiction settings don't play well with each other (except Cyberpunk).