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Old 11-19-2010, 01:12 AM   #21
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Default Re: GURPS CABAL: A problem

Part of your problem is that you're taking Cabal as an entirety here. Yeah your 200 pt PCs won't survive long vs the entire Cabal, but that is the point of delegation and keeping the existence of the Cabal secret. Realistic PCs can survive the Cabal because the Cabal won't commit it's big guns to what it sees as a petty problem.
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Old 11-19-2010, 01:43 AM   #22
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Default Re: GURPS CABAL: A problem

First, I agree with what others have stated, i.e. that the Cabal is rife with infighting. If the Cabal could ever act as a united whole, that would be bad news not just for a group of low-power righteous adventurers, it would be for this whole world of ours...

Second, the Cabal isn't necessarily that powerful. See the first option under Size, p. 80.

Third, why is the Cabal so fractured and always waging internecine wars? Maybe because some of its lodges and Grand Masters are, indeed, pure evil, and others aren't. They might be brutal and have little qualms, but that's the only effective way to fight the Bathorys. If the PCs are white knights, they might well show that they are by starting to wonder about this assumption, questioning orders that are too cavalier with collateral damage, and this will only make your campaign more interesting.

As a final alternative, if you don't like having the PCs working for a governmental witch-hunter agency, you could consider a private, profit- oriented company: the Barrett family.

Pyramid: The Seven Bees

Of course, after a while, the PCs may well discover the company they work for is part of wider organization which is, again, less than a white lily. That applies with the Barretts, would apply with any Cabal lodge, and in all likelihood with the CIA or any agency, too. It's quite unlikely that any large, powerful organization never makes compromises. But maybe by that time they'll be powerful enough to hit the road on their own, becoming independent crusaders. Why not?
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Old 11-19-2010, 02:39 AM   #23
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Default Re: GURPS CABAL: A problem

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Originally Posted by martinl View Post
Start the PCs out with advantages or artifacts that allow them to hide from the Cabal.

Ex: The PCs are all Righteous Souls who died at the exact moment that a coalition of especially ambitious Cabalists launched an assault on Heaven. Their souls were at the right place at the right time to interfere, and they did, foiling the Cabalists' dastardly plan. (You can even make this the first session.)

They wake up again in the moral world, in the place they died, mysteriously healed, and with several new advantages that make them resistant to, and impossible to track with, supernatural powers. They can also always tell where the other PCs are, and sense Cabalist supernatural powers in operation.

The Ineffable has made them Its agents. Being ineffable, It knows that they will do what is needed without direct instruction.
I know your looking for normal to start with PCs who gradually figure things out and grow more capable. But this line or a version could work too.
In the given example the PCs dont have to know the source of thier abilities or even that they have any.
They meet each other, apparently by accident or coincidence but somehow "KNOW" that thier is a connection adn they should get to know each other. Maybe its just Deja Vu maybe something else....
Then they start putting together details or have people hunting them and in trying to figure out who that is uncover more and mroe and start getting more active.
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Old 11-19-2010, 03:22 AM   #24
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Default Re: GURPS CABAL: A problem

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I know your looking for normal to start with PCs who gradually figure things out and grow more capable. But this line or a version could work too.
In the given example the PCs dont have to know the source of thier abilities or even that they have any.
They meet each other, apparently by accident or coincidence but somehow "KNOW" that thier is a connection adn they should get to know each other. Maybe its just Deja Vu maybe something else....
Then they start putting together details or have people hunting them and in trying to figure out who that is uncover more and mroe and start getting more active.
Yes, that's good and something I can maybe tie in with the established background of the Cabal without involving the many worlds at all.

If I did use the Infinite Worlds setting though a question:

I think Infinity Inc will be using the already existing Warehouse 23 as a front. They would know about the Cabal going in and would be carefully probing the newly discovered world, not trying to disturb things too much.

Centrum though, being slightly tone deaf to the more metaphysical side of things, could come in and see only an echo of Infinity that they could exploit. Where would they start to infiltrate? What would they try to pull? (Depends on when I set it of course: pre-WWI is very different from the 1980s. But I think I'd go for late 20th Century leading up to the millenium.) (And there's my campaign tiitle: Millenium Blues. The PCs are law enforcement of some sort and they find themselves tied up in a series of events leading to the triggering of the apocalypse by the combination of the meddling of Centrum with the conspiracies of the Cabal.)
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Old 11-19-2010, 04:01 AM   #25
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Default Re: GURPS CABAL: A problem

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Originally Posted by Michael Cule View Post
Centrum though, being slightly tone deaf to the more metaphysical side of things, could come in and see only an echo of Infinity that they could exploit. Where would they start to infiltrate? What would they try to pull? (Depends on when I set it of course: pre-WWI is very different from the 1980s. But I think I'd go for late 20th Century leading up to the millenium.)
Centrum's plan for the 1990s? The NATO has won the Cold War. The USA are obviously the best bet for world hegemony, which would stabilize an unruly, nuclear-armed world.
So on the one hand, the remnants of the other bloc have to be taken over by sensible administrators; society before the individual is OK, but it has to work.

On the other hand, the individualistic, libertarian, chaotic tendences of Western culture have to be curbed. More state, more central economic planning, more meritocracy, and less fancy ideas like civil rights, free enterprise, democracy.

Where there is democracy, expect successful businessmen with strong ties with the public sector to campaign in the elections (wait, hasn't it happened, actually?). If they come to power, they'll favor efficiency rather than freedom.

Where there isn't democracy but small, easily overcome dictatorships, expect coups that establish similar rulers, who will also try and forge regional agreements.

China can be encouraged in the direction it is already taking: economic development without political advancement.

Nuclear and also BC disarmament will be strongly encouraged.

So what's the problem with all of that? That Centran agents might be pushing too far, too fast.
They might have a failed coup in Kazakhstan (where there still is a nuclear arsenal).
Californian cities might be rioting over civil liberties while anti-state militias soar as a reaction to heavy-handed micro-management.
China becomes too ambitious and goes for those islets, or Nepal.
Neo-anarchists gain ground in the European banlieues and the British are seriously annoyed by Brussel's growing power.
An attempt at keeping Czechoslovakia together no matter what (splintering is a no-no for Centrum) ends badly (i.e., with bloodshed).
The NATO gets involved in former Yugoslavia quite early, which may be a good thing for the locals but mightily irks the Russians.
Centrum's bona fide attempt at keeping violence at minimum levels in Africa brings about a backlash by interested parties (say diamond or oil buyers) and things actually get worse. As a further unforeseen consequence, Ebola comes out of the jungle.

The Centrans might also underestimate the Muslim countries as a backwater that can be taken on later, which would also be a serious oversight.

Don't make everything go wrong, I'd say; after all, Centrans are good at cliodynamics. Maybe many South American countries establish a customs union, the Baltic states a federation, the Japanese bubble doesn't end as badly, the Chechen war isn't as bloody, and cocaine doesn't become as popular.
But if what you want is a sense of looming apocalypse, the success stories will be less momentous than the blunders, both because of genuine mistakes by Centrum, and because Homeline and the Cabal are also meddling.
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Old 11-19-2010, 06:24 AM   #26
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Default Re: GURPS CABAL: A problem

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Any suggestions? I suppose a Patron of some sort is indicated. But who? And is it inevitable that I'm going to have to reveal that the people fighting the Cabal are but another part of it?
John Dee, who is probably the sanest and most moral grandmaster (though still dangerously iffy) is probably your best bet for a patron. But don't present him as Dr. Dee from the start. Just who the PCs are working for should be part of the mystery.

I'd suggest having the PCs think they are Moles. They think they are Pretending to join the CABAL. That makes even the most mundaine events threatening. Afterall, if you infiltrait a group of mind readers, wizards, and monsters, who knows when they could learn your secrets? Or how?
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Old 11-19-2010, 06:29 AM   #27
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Yes, I've got my eye on him. And on Warehouse 23 as a possible Patron.

Without the idea of Infinity Inc to back him though, I'm not sure that he makes a viable long term opponent of the Cabal.
How do you know that Warehouse 23 isn't controlled by the CABAL? Vast ancient conspiracies that don't let the right hand know what the left is doing tend to be everywhere.

The PCs might be agents of Infinity, who think they're moles infiltrating the CABAL, when in fact they are catpaws of the CABAL infiltraiting Infinity!
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:13 AM   #28
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Default Re: GURPS CABAL: A problem

A few points . . .

1. Cabal was expressly designed as a horror setting. Hite admits this up front. It may well be that terrible things will happen to the PCs' souls regardless, by dint of how the setting was conceived. Avoiding that probably means tinkering quite a bit with the author's fundamental assumptions. For instance, you might have to make the Cabal less cosmic in scope, or certain forms of magic less corrupting.

2. Not all supernatural power in the setting is particularly corrupting. By default, most superhuman capabilities in GURPS just are, and carry no moral freight. What adds moral spin is what you do with your gifts. A psi ability or a spell is no different from the Guns skill or Sex Appeal skill in this regard: if you wouldn't shoot or seduce to evil ends, then you probably wouldn't read minds without permission or curse people. It's entirely possible to be a hero with high-powered paranormal talents, just as it's possible to be a hero as a sniper or a social engineer.

3. My second point notwithstanding, one could argue that all power does corrupt. The real world seems to back this up, but even if you disagree with that, it's nearly always true in horror settings. In that case, the fix is either to start the PCs out on fewer points (so that they aren't powerful) or to shift the focus from horror to conspiracy (so that corruption is a political choice rather than a supernatural compulsion).

4. In any setting, the GM has all the marbles. If "the PCs may be crushed" is a concern, then simply dial back the actual threats the PCs face. If the PCs aren't powerful, then there's no way that a huge, rather fragmented cabal would micromanage their destruction; they simply aren't worth it. If the PCs are powerful, then being crushed shouldn't be an issue . . . let them go all Dr. Strange and fight evil with steely resolve and big spells that go "Boom!"
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:19 PM   #29
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HIJACK!
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
splintering is a no-no for Centrum
On the other hand, pragmatism is a Centran virtue.
Any Interworld Service Agent (and any Unattached Agent even more) worthy
of the title should realise that splintering now is of no concern if all the
splinters will be part of a bigger stepping-stone (e.g. a European Federation) to the final goal within a decade or two anyway.

Then again, I'd keep Centrum out of a Cabal vs. Infinity set-up.
They add little of use that can't be done/blamed on others.
Reich-5, on the other hand...
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:28 PM   #30
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Default Re: GURPS CABAL: A problem

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HIJACK!

On the other hand, pragmatism is a Centran virtue.
Any Interworld Service Agent (and any Unattached Agent even more) worthy
of the title should realise that splintering now is of no concern if all the
splinters will be part of a bigger stepping-stone (e.g. a European Federation) to the final goal within a decade or two anyway.

Then again, I'd keep Centrum out of a Cabal vs. Infinity set-up.
They add little of use that can't be done/blamed on others.
Reich-5, on the other hand...
I like the idea of Centrum's well intended (though authoritarian) meddling screwing things up more than interdimensional Nazis. And there ought to be stuff that I can do with the European Union... Yes, if the PCs are in the US and Centrum (having decided that American individualism is to be allowed to go totally loopy and provide a Horrid Lesson) are concentrating their efforts in Europe.... That might work...
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