Technological Advancement in a Post-Magic Banestorm Campaign

[desorto]

I have been toying with the idea for an unusual Banestorm campaign. The short version assumes that there was a troubling uptick in Banestorm appearances and some group (I haven't settled on which one yet) set out to solve the problem by adapting an ancient ritual. The result was a tremendous magical backlash that sapped much of the world's mana making no mana the norm with a few sizable pockets of low mana and maybe a small scattering of other mana levels in remote places. Obviously, this is going to wreak havoc on most societies, but my question is this:

How long do you think going from tech level 3 (4) to a steampunkish late TL5 (6) would take? It seems like the existence of underground engineers and refugees with some higher tech knowledge who escaped mindwipes should speed the process up somewhat since the problem wouldn't be waiting around for a conceptual breakthrough so much as a matter of infrastructure, political maneuvering, and locating those with the desired knowledge.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by desorto

How long do you think going from tech level 3 (4) to a steampunkish late TL5 (6) would take? It seems like the existence of underground engineers and refugees with some higher tech knowledge who escaped mindwipes should speed the process up somewhat since the problem wouldn't be waiting around for a conceptual breakthrough so much as a matter of infrastructure, political maneuvering, and locating those with the desired knowledge.

On the other hand, probably nobody from those groups is still alive when society is in good enough shape to start rebuilding. It's not altogether clear, but I suspect most nations can't even feed most of their populations without magic, and they certainly can't maintain their communications links, or do much about public health, so the immediate aftermath is something rather post-apocalyptic - along the lines of half the population dies, cities and central organization go away, and it'll be two or three generations before the TL climbs all the way back to TL3.

So GMs call really, could be anything from a century or so (the GM more or less ignores the collapse) to never (the tribes of stone age cannibals are eventually wiped out by the orcs.)

[desorto]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I suspect most nations can't even feed most of their populations without magic, and they certainly can't maintain their communications links, or do much about public health, so the immediate aftermath is something rather post-apocalyptic - along the lines of half the population dies, cities and central organization go away, and it'll be two or three generations before the TL climbs all the way back to TL3.

Good point. I assume such an event would probably lead to the collapse of most highly magical societies. I can't see the Megalan Empire, for example, surviving in any recognizable form, and a city like Megalos would probably be unsupportable without magic. On the other hand, nations that depend less on magic (e.g. al-Haz, Araterre, Caithness) might have a slight edge in the aftermath. True, a little magic isn't the same thing as no magic at all, and there would almost certainly be widespread political collapse and fighting over remaining pockets of low mana territory. On the other hand, some of what accounts for the higher life expectancy of commoners on Yrth is already the result of cultural contamination (i.e. rural villagers who don't have access to skilled wizards survive, because doctors have discovered washing their hands and instruments before seeing patients is a pretty good idea). Now, that's not going to help a whole lot in a place like Megalos that probably depends on magic for sanitation and other basic services, but I assume cities in nations less tolerant of magic would not depend on it quite as much.

Anyway, I appreciate the comment. I am probably going to handwave what I must to get away from PCs as Stone Age nomands vs. Orcs, though it might be interesting to have pockets of that sort of thing here and there. Maybe a bit more like Robotech or Battlestar Galactica (the PCs as part of a group searching to find a new home, one with mana) rather than Mad Max.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by malloyd

On the other hand, probably nobody from those groups is still alive when society is in good enough shape to start rebuilding. It's not altogether clear, but I suspect most nations can't even feed most of their populations without magic, and they certainly can't maintain their communications links, or do much about public health, so the immediate aftermath is something rather post-apocalyptic - along the lines of half the population dies, cities and central organization go away, and it'll be two or three generations before the TL climbs all the way back to TL3.

So GMs call really, could be anything from a century or so (the GM more or less ignores the collapse) to never (the tribes of stone age cannibals are eventually wiped out by the orcs.)

I think Caithness would survive relatively well, having had only Low Mana to begin with. The elder races have superior odds, due to their longer lifespans, fewer numbers, and generally heavily ingrained cultural preference for order. I imagine their first order of business would be to send expeditions to highly magical places to see if they are still there and colonizable, then maybe other continents.

[desorto]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

I think Caithness would survive relatively well, having had only Low Mana to begin with.

That's along the lines of what I was thinking. Places with low mana and/or cultural restrictions on magic would be both likely hiding places for underground engineers (the better to avoid snooping mages) and places most likely to weather the initial collapse relatively well (until their desperate, displaced neighbors arrive). The problem, as I see it, in places like that is going to be getting access to facilities necessary for smelting alloys and machining parts. And more importantly getting fuel and other raw materials needed. And that may well place dwarves at the head of the pack as far as building airships and the like. On the other hand, Zarak seems pretty secure, so there might not be too much incentive to go out and explore, at least as a nation.

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

The elder races have superior odds, due to their longer lifespans, fewer numbers, and generally heavily ingrained cultural preference for order. I imagine their first order of business would be to send expeditions to highly magical places to see if they are still there and colonizable, then maybe other continents.

Yeah, I haven't settled exactly on how far I want to turn the knob down on magic. I'm thinking maybe back 2 steps (normal mana to no mana) at the epicenter and out to some very large radius (I might dig around and look at damage (and/or radiation) from an atomic bomb for ideas on the kind of area involved). I definitely want there to be some places where magic is possible, but I would like to put the spotlight on steampunk-y weird science as a source of wonder.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

I think Caithness would survive relatively well, having had only Low Mana to begin with.

And a fairly low population density. It probably is the existing state in the best shape. Well, barring any lizardman tribal alliances.

The elder races have superior odds, due to their longer lifespans, fewer numbers, and generally heavily ingrained cultural preference for order.

Conversely I think they're doomed. Species with innate powers or racial magery are likely to be pretty dependent on magic. And the usual fantasy setting "non-magical" non-human race, dwarves, normally live in tunnels they can't really light or ventilate without magic, even neglecting the problems of food supply.

For most fantasy races, not just on Yrth, magic is the equalizer that excuses their ability to stay in competition with humans despite their other disadvantages. Even those with metabolisms that could possibly work without magic, which is something you need to think about in these sorts of situations. Not everything that really can't work without some level of magic necessarily has Mana Dependency on its template. Of course you can handwave some of those by calling it some kind of magic other than the mana dependent kind.

Note the 4e version of Yrth adds a good many other kinds of magic that weren't really in the 3e version - psi, spiritual powers, mysticism - you'll need to make decisions about whether those work now. If they do, it's possible, and perhaps more likely to rebuild a magical rather than a tech based civilization.

I imagine their first order of business would be to send expeditions to highly magical places to see if they are still there and colonizable, then maybe other continents.

How do you know there are any? And how do you find them? A long term project perhaps, once you learn they exist, but not first thing.

[desorto]

Originally Posted by malloyd

And the usual fantasy setting "non-magical" non-human race, dwarves, normally live in tunnels they can't really light or ventilate without magic, even neglecting the problems of food supply.

Thanks! This has given me an idea on how to get those dwarves out exploring the world. I was thinking of having a large no mana area that covers Megalos and having the effect tapper off somewhat the further one gets out from ground zero. Now, if the no mana area reaches into part of Zarak then goes back up to low mana deeper in the complex, it would leave them intact enough to do some of the necessary building required at the early stages of the transition. It might also be motivation to get some of the population out, since maintaining the necessary support for all of them will be more difficult. It might also provide incentive for some kind of alliance with human communities.

Originally Posted by malloyd

Note the 4e version of Yrth adds a good many other kinds of magic that weren't really in the 3e version - psi, spiritual powers, mysticism - you'll need to make decisions about whether those work now. If they do, it's possible, and perhaps more likely to rebuild a magical rather than a tech based civilization.

I was thinking that I would allow psionics, chi, and biological powers, but these should be somewhat rare and fairly weak. Things like Danger Sense, Body Control, Slow Regeneration, and enhanced senses are fine. Wingless flight, Innate attacks as powerful as modern firearms, and things like that are most likely only going to be available as gadgets (for the PCs and most of the people they regularly interact with anyway).

Originally Posted by malloyd

How do you know there are any? And how do you find them? A long term project perhaps, once you learn they exist, but not first thing.

Well, that'll mostly be covered in backstory and setting. The campaign will probably kick off at the long term project stage, which will probably be at least a few game years in the making. But yeah, technically not "the first thing."

[Frost]

Originally Posted by malloyd

It's not altogether clear, but I suspect most nations can't even feed most of their populations without magic, and they certainly can't maintain their communications links, or do much about public health, so the immediate aftermath is something rather post-apocalyptic along the lines of half the population dies, cities and central organization go away, and it'll be two or three generations before the TL climbs all the way back to TL3.

True, at least for Megalos and the Islamic states, but as others have said probably not such an issue in low manna areas. However you probably won't see any significant decline in the basic tech level.

TL 3 societies may be easy to break but they are also a lot easier to rebuild afterwards than more advanced societies. Outside of the major cities (and to a large extent within them) basic goods will still be produced from local resources by indevidual craftsmen trained largely by rote, the collapse will have at most a temporary effect upon this kind of production. Advanced technology and luxury goods are another matter but the disaperence or shortening of supplies will have a comparitively limmited impact upon overall tech level.

Even centeral authority need not collapse. Low TL states have historicaly survived disasters approaching this sort of magnitude with their governments weakened but intact.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by desorto

How long do you think going from tech level 3 (4) to a steampunkish late TL5 (6) would take? It seems like the existence of underground engineers and refugees with some higher tech knowledge who escaped mindwipes should speed the process up somewhat since the problem wouldn't be waiting around for a conceptual breakthrough so much as a matter of infrastructure, political maneuvering, and locating those with the desired knowledge.

While I can't give you hard and fast numbers assume that even with outside help you are looking at not less than several generations perhapse even a century or more. The infrastructure needed to impliment any TL increase will take time to build up particularly in societies that have both an ingrained predudice against advanced technology and have recently experienced a major social and economic disaster.