Sci-fi Interstellar Empires and Tech Regression

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The problem is that tech regression usually isn't possible, because there's so much infrastructure involved in even a medium tech level, and it's probably not present in the high tech level; basically, once your tech starts collapsing, it likely either stabilizes fairly immediately with cheap versions of current tech (which is maybe a 1 TL loss), or it probably goes into free fall and if you're lucky stabilizes at TL 4.

Note that we don't have much in the way of examples of real-world tech regression -- we have economic collapse resulting in some of the bigger stuff no longer being built, but the actual 'tech level' isn't really lower.

... and most nations that would be capable of it, probably do not have anyone in power who is both unethical enough to run the necessary experiments (would require isolation from regions able and willing to tech them back up), and would be interested in the results.

[PTTG]

The collapse of a mighty civilization is the ultimate conspiracy theory. It may be that nobody knows why... which ultimately means that instead of one solid theory, you only need to come up with three or four subtly flawed ones. Here's a few ideas:

- Traditional Civil War: This could be the general theme of dozens of theories. Everyone says that their precursors (religious, racial, planetary) were the innocent ones that those bastards from (an opposing religion, differing race, distant star system) viciously attacked, eventually leading to political, then social, then technological collapse.

- Plauge: Natural or artificial (presumably as a part of some Civil War), either one could kill 99.9999999% of humanity, leaving only stragglers on what planets survive. Problem with that is that if there are a variety of demi-human species, they'll have differing immune systems and some will survive far more effectively than others.

- Tech Plauge: Instead of a human illness, have mad nanites destroy technology. Without the unobtanium power cores in precursor ships, the nanties decayed away, leaving only the settlers on planets, the few abandoned bases on uninhabitable moons, and the occasional drifting starship. Alternatively, a gamma-ray-burster struck and killed all the power cores... forcing a regression.

- Trancendence: Maybe somebody figured out a way to separate consciousness from physical forms... or claimed to have done so. Either way, only the luddites were left standing.

Naturally, the real answer is some combination of all of these (presumably). Maybe the trancendants triggered a war, somebody developed the nanite plauge, someone else launched the bio-plauge... If you need multiple "resets," just have uncovered caches of infected material pop back up.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The problem is that tech regression usually isn't possible, because there's so much infrastructure involved in even a medium tech level, and it's probably not present in the high tech level; basically, once your tech starts collapsing, it likely either stabilizes fairly immediately with cheap versions of current tech (which is maybe a 1 TL loss), or it probably goes into free fall and if you're lucky stabilizes at TL 4.

Note that we don't have much in the way of examples of real-world tech regression -- we have economic collapse resulting in some of the bigger stuff no longer being built, but the actual 'tech level' isn't really lower.

It depends on what we mean by 'regression', too.

For ex, a planet in the Empire might have had TL10 (for ex) tech, but it was lightly settled and much of the necessary support infrastructure is off-world. The Empire crashes, and the locals simply lack the population and necessary resources to maintain a TL10 society, even if they have the theoretical knowledge in their libraries and so forth.

So they collapse, maybe down to TL4, but they don't necessarily stay there very long because they do have enough people and resources to maintain, say, a TL7 society. So they rebuild back up from 4 to 7 over a generation or 5, because they have the knowledge but it takes a while to rebuild the local infrastructure and learn the practical skills to use it.

So...a century or three after the Collapse, we have a world with a TL7 society, or mor likely a 6/7 version, with the theoretical knowledge to go up to higher levels but lacking the necessary raw materials/practical skills/infrastructure to actually do it. They might be able to build a few lower tech versions of higher-TL devices, but can't implement the full version.

So...does this count as an example of regression?

[wabishtar]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Bringing down an interstellar society with plague is hard, since in most settings every planet, ship, and space station is a separated unit with highly controllable borders, and travel across known space usually takes a while. Which means that quarantine should be extremely effective.

I have a suggestion for how you might get around this, and for how you might explain the massive societal collapse. What if the First Interstellar Empire didn't use spaceships? What if they used a planetary teleportation device that sent people from one planet to another almost instantly? That would explain how the plague spread. On the other hand, if the teleportation devices were used for both travel and communication, you might not even need a plague, just something that disables the gates. If every planet had become extremely specialized, producing only a few products for the galactic economy, and all data was stored on a sort of intergalactic cloud network connected by the teleportation devices, then the disabling of the gates could cause every planet to be very suddenly totally alone, and without access to the information necessary to maintain their current level of technology. I know this isn't exactly the universe you were describing, but it's just a thought.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by wabishtar

I have a suggestion for how you might get around this, and for how you might explain the massive societal collapse. What if the First Interstellar Empire didn't use spaceships? What if they used a planetary teleportation device that sent people from one planet to another almost instantly? That would explain how the plague spread. On the other hand, if the teleportation devices were used for both travel and communication, you might not even need a plague, just something that disables the gates. If every planet had become extremely specialized, producing only a few products for the galactic economy, and all data was stored on a sort of intergalactic cloud network connected by the teleportation devices, then the disabling of the gates could cause every planet to be very suddenly totally alone, and without access to the information necessary to maintain their current level of technology. I know this isn't exactly the universe you were describing, but it's just a thought.

Yeah, linking the place together with portals nicely disrupts the physical quarantine provided by space.

[Nereidalbel]

Fantasy settings have covered this many times. Technology reaches the point where all systems do self-repair, the Empire collapses, and machines eventually run out of resources to repair themselves. Since nobody on a colony world needed to know how to repair said machines, they become so much scrap metal once they stop functioning.

Throw in a war, and you end up with machines breaking down even faster. Since a nuke available near the borderline between TL7 and TL8 can destroy power grids 900+, miles away, devices available to any civilization capable of FTL travel should have no trouble delivering a devastating EMP to entire worlds.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Fantasy settings have covered this many times. Technology reaches the point where all systems do self-repair, the Empire collapses, and machines eventually run out of resources to repair themselves. Since nobody on a colony world needed to know how to repair said machines, they become so much scrap metal once they stop functioning.

Throw in a war, and you end up with machines breaking down even faster. Since a nuke available near the borderline between TL7 and TL8 can destroy power grids 900+, miles away, devices available to any civilization capable of FTL travel should have no trouble delivering a devastating EMP to entire worlds.

That, as Anthony notes, isn't going to cause regression, it'll cause outright freefall, stopping somewhere in the inclusive range from TL4 to extinction.


It seems to me that an actual regression could be achieved by a very gentle collapse. Where the writing is clearly on the wall for years while the advanced tech base remains usable. And people, recognizing the unsustainability, use their residual tech to establish a lower-level sustainable infrastructure.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

That, as Anthony notes, isn't going to cause regression, it'll cause outright freefall, stopping somewhere in the inclusive range from TL4 to extinction.


It seems to me that an actual regression could be achieved by a very gentle collapse. Where the writing is clearly on the wall for years while the advanced tech base remains usable. And people, recognizing the unsustainability, use their residual tech to establish a lower-level sustainable infrastructure.

If simple machines take long enough to break down, there can be a gradual collapse from TL10+ down to 4-ish. I say 4 only because people should be able to figure out enough to stabilize there by the time the last computer fails. An instantaneous failure of ALL machines and computers would be a drop to TL1, with constructed buildings being little more than artificial caves.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

If simple machines take long enough to break down, there can be a gradual collapse from TL10+ down to 4-ish. I say 4 only because people should be able to figure out enough to stabilize there by the time the last computer fails. An instantaneous failure of ALL machines and computers would be a drop to TL1, with constructed buildings being little more than artificial caves.

You might be able to have a gradual collapse in the sense of remnant technology gradually fading away, but a TL10 failing tech base is never going to be TL8, or TL7. Those tech bases aren't on the natural path from TL10 to wherever it's going.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

You might be able to have a gradual collapse in the sense of remnant technology gradually fading away, but a TL10 failing tech base is never going to be TL8, or TL7. Those tech bases aren't on the natural path from TL10 to wherever it's going.

That depends on how long automation goes. Regression may be measured in decades instead of generations, but, it'll still happen. Note that this is overall TL, and sub-categories may fall at different rates.