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Old 08-27-2018, 10:25 PM   #631
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Default Re: Five Earths, All in a Row

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(SNIP)

Of course sometimes all it take is one film to set an image of an actor and then he reprices that role which helps reinforce the image. Waking up to find out he was a machine would certain ruin Schwarzenegger's day.
Arnie wouldn't wake up as a machine -- the powers are a lot less powerful and more subtle, than that. He might get a talent with swords, though, or just find himself as strong as he was, 40 years ago.

No, the real problem will be all the robot-geeks in the Cyberdyne Systems Corporation t-shirts (you know who you are...) who suddenly get wild inspirations and start to build some Really Awesome Robots in their garages -- only to find out that was a Really Bad Idea.

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The Hollywood studios must be real nervous about their props "waking up" though they could offer assistance. Imagine how simple travel would be if MGM could get its Stargates working allowing travel between the Earths.
Some of the props have already started to work, and PC has specifically mentioned some up-thread. I'm not sure a functional Stargate matches PCs vision of proper power-levels, though.

Also, they screw up the need for Really Cool Spaceships, so if I were to run a campaign in this setting, I'd nix functional Stargates, outright. It's just too much of a game-changer and it messes up too much cool stuff.
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Old 08-28-2018, 07:28 AM   #632
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Default Re: Five Earths, All in a Row

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Some of the props have already started to work, and PC has specifically mentioned some up-thread. I'm not sure a functional Stargate matches PCs vision of proper power-levels, though.

Also, they screw up the need for Really Cool Spaceships, so if I were to run a campaign in this setting, I'd nix functional Stargates, outright. It's just too much of a game-changer and it messes up too much cool stuff.
It is important to remember the key limit of the Stargates: you need two of them to go anywhere.

My fanfiction Saotome Ranma, Wiseman retains this limitation and throws in some others.

These version of Stargates are powered by Ki (life energy) and as a result transporting something that is alive (or was alive aka cotton, fossil fuels, etc) is far easier then transporting something that wasn't alive (such as metal)

This means that you can't easily send fully armed troops through the Stargate. So they are somewhat limited. Also learning on how to properly use something they only have the vaguest idea on how it works (Effectively they are superscience versions of Einstein-Rosen Bridges) is going to take time.

Regarding those "Really Cool Spaceships" I would like to point out there are things even more powerful then the Stargates in the fiction that has already been introduced as part of the setting.

For example the Triskelion, Kalandans, Ionian transporters from Star Trek. Never mind the freaking Guardian of Forever which makes the Time Space door of Sailor Moon look like "stone knifes and bear skins". Then there is Flint...who has access to TL12^ (which it is implied he built himself) easy.

I should also point out even with Stargates the races of the series still have spaceships.

Then you have the really insane stuff: the fold system of Robotech/Macross comes to mind (I have made protoculture a for of Ki energy system in my fanfic). Even if you keep to her to Magical Girl Pretty Sammy incarnation Washu is pretty insane; not quite up to Flint's level but easily TL9^ approaching TL10^ at a good clip; with any other version she and Flint will be trading tech tips like crazy (Tench had 13 different "realities' when I looked at it in c 2012)

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Old 08-28-2018, 09:24 AM   #633
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Arnie wouldn't wake up as a machine -- the powers are a lot less powerful and more subtle, than that. He might get a talent with swords, though, or just find himself as strong as he was, 40 years ago.
True. Also, probably better at math, and more durable.

Lots of people (not just actors) are undergoing various biological changes, mostly subtle, but in many cases, noticeable. Gaining two hearts, respiratory bypass system, and other such things would be very unusual (even for an actor) without something big to trigger it, but gaining insight into Gallifreyan technurgy, telepathic abilities, temporal senses, and greater endurance would be far more likely, even if also accompanied by a great knowledge of early twentieth century veterinary medicine and crime-solving (Tristan and Campion, both played by Peter Davison), nature-focused magic (Radagast the Brown, played by Sylvester McCoy), or late eighteenth century seamanship (Lieutenant Bush, played by Paul McGann).

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No, the real problem will be all the robot-geeks in the Cyberdyne Systems Corporation t-shirts (you know who you are...) who suddenly get wild inspirations and start to build some Really Awesome Robots in their garages -- only to find out that was a Really Bad Idea.
This would also be correct.

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Some of the props have already started to work, and PC has specifically mentioned some up-thread. I'm not sure a functional Stargate matches PCs vision of proper power-levels, though.

Also, they screw up the need for Really Cool Spaceships, so if I were to run a campaign in this setting, I'd nix functional Stargates, outright. It's just too much of a game-changer and it messes up too much cool stuff.
Stargates, while possible in-setting, would not work quite like the ones on the show. Basically, imagine that the 'mouth' of a wormhole is of variable size. A stargate could hold many wormholes with the mouths in compact form, just large enough to send signals through. When you want to go to the planet on the other end of one specific wormhole, a signal is sent, and once both 'gates are clear, the right pair of wormhole mouths are moved to the opening of that 'gate, and expanded to full size. These stargates might have the same visual effects as the source material, though.

The one big limitation here is that you need to have a wormhole that connects your origin point to your destination, or have a very large amount of power available, if you want to create a new one across interstellar distances, rather than create one where the the two mouths are close together, and taking one terminal from your origin point to the destination the slow way, or by using another form of FTL (carrying a wormhole through another wormhole doesn't work terribly well, but carrying it through a hyperspace or using warp drive can be done).

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Davison likely would be more likely to "become" Tristan Farnon, Colin Baker was not a popular doctor until the audio dramas showed the problem was the lack of good scripts so he is kind of on the skids even in 2014. As for the rest I think it all depends on their popularity with the fans and how long they were in the role.
Popularity in the sense of 'the fans like them as this character' should not be confused with popularity in the sense of 'people associate this actor with that character, and have some emotional investment.' Both are important. Colin Baker would absolutely be rather less affected than Tom Baker, but would not be much less affected than Davidson or McCoy, and would likely be more affected than McGann, Eccleston, or Smith.

Also, 'how long they were in the role' is actually two things: the actual duration, and how much time has passed since they first took it up, so long as they're still remembered for it, and were for a significant part of the intervening time. Also, in the specific case of Colin Baker, his playing the Stranger counts more-or-less as part of his playing the Doctor during the period in which the show was cancelled.
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Old 08-28-2018, 11:34 AM   #634
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The one big limitation here is that you need to have a wormhole that connects your origin point to your destination, or have a very large amount of power available, if you want to create a new one across interstellar distances, rather than create one where the the two mouths are close together, and taking one terminal from your origin point to the destination the slow way, or by using another form of FTL (carrying a wormhole through another wormhole doesn't work terribly well, but carrying it through a hyperspace or using warp drive can be done).
Also remember that even in the series setting Stargates are very limited in size (more limited then the Gate spell)

While somewhat limited the knowledge of the TL7-8 stuff of Earth-InP is definitely going to result in a TL (whatever)/7-8^ situation on the other Earths. Now how long it takes to get there is going to very (I would argue that it has already happened on Dp-Earth).

Fa-Earth is going to have headaches as D&D will give mages "ideas" and Authentic Thaumaturgy a rough mechanic on how to make those ideas a reality. The more powerful stuff is clearly beyond their means but some of the lesser stuff can be made. Even there the wizards expect a lot of failures...some resulting in a nice big hole where the wizard's lab was and the remains of said wizard decorating the surronding countryside.

Edit: InP China's used of nuclear weapons against Dp Japan should have mammoth political fallout (bad pun I know) as it directly violates the 1967 Outer Space Treaty up one side and down the other. and yes the other Earths would fall under this Treaty with the other celestial body clauses. InP China would have to be rabidly insane to even attempt something like this.

For some cultural ideas on how InP and Dp Earth could interact there is the Usenet series "USA 2002 in 1942 ISOT". Birmingham's Axis in Time series give some insight on what the knowledge of future events could do. Stalin could easily go into purge the problem mode even with the war going on.

Last edited by maximara; 08-28-2018 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:35 PM   #635
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The fact there are technically five Popes (St Hormisdas was the Pope from 20 July 514 to 6 Aug 523 in OTL so Fa-Earth likely has an equivalent) has got to be an utter nightmare from a theological standpoint. Which of the five "runs" the Catholic Church? Do rulings by "future" Popes have any bearing on what is viewed as heresy on the "younger" Earths? What do you do about the tools InP Earth has to produce "more accurate" Bibles?

It is safe to say that Aristotelian Cosmology is deader then the proverbial Dodo on Cp Earth as the destruction of the Moon showed that "Heaven" is not perfect and unchanging. The appearance of four other Earths three of which are in a future that odds are will never be and one of a past that never was is also going to be a theological migraine as all thoughts of a "set" future are gone.
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Old 08-29-2018, 04:25 PM   #636
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The fact there are technically five Popes (St Hormisdas was the Pope from 20 July 514 to 6 Aug 523 in OTL so Fa-Earth likely has an equivalent) has got to be an utter nightmare from a theological standpoint. Which of the five "runs" the Catholic Church? Do rulings by "future" Popes have any bearing on what is viewed as heresy on the "younger" Earths? What do you do about the tools InP Earth has to produce "more accurate" Bibles?
Don't forget that only Infopunk and Dieselpunk Earths have officially infallible Popes. And Pius XII and Francis will probably have a ... shall we say, a difference of viewpoints?

Religious discussions will be decided three falls out of four; no gouging, biting, or knees to the groin.
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Old 08-29-2018, 07:01 PM   #637
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Don't forget that only Infopunk and Dieselpunk Earths have officially infallible Popes. And Pius XII and Francis will probably have a ... shall we say, a difference of viewpoints?

Religious discussions will be decided three falls out of four; no gouging, biting, or knees to the groin.
The afore mentioned USA 2002 in 1942 story brought up this very point with a 2002 USA having to deal with a 1942 Vatican:

"Vatican II had modernized church doctrine in an attempt to meet the spiritual needs of Catholics in the fast-paced modern world. Mass was no longer conducted in Latin, subtle, but important changes had been made to the manner in which Mass was conducted, the Liturgy, and so on. Vatican II was the modern Catholic Church, and its adoption had been hard enough in the 1960s. Many traditionalists were unhappy with it. Over the decades, however, it had become part and parcel of the Catholic Faith.

Of course, it was entirely possible that Pius XII would view it as Heresy.

Vatican I, in the 1870s, had established the doctrine of papal infallibility; that is, that the Pope is the living representative of God on Earth, and his writ is law."

To be more accurate Vatican I was opened 8 December 1869 and adjourned on 20 October 1870, so unless things happened very differently on Steampunk Earth the Pope there is also infallible.

The 2002 USA had it easy as there was just one Pope...even if he was Pius XII.

By contrast, each of the five Earths has a Pope and with three of them "infallible" you know things are going to go pearshaped in terms of theology real fast. I can easily see Benedict XVI, Pius XII, and Pope Clement XV all butting heads over Vatican II and things quickly deteriorating from there.

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Old 08-29-2018, 07:58 PM   #638
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IIRC infallibility does not mean the Pope is always right. It means that when he rules on certain kinds of doctrinal questions in a specifically legal manner that issue is settled.

The church does have precedent for multiple popes, there were several times with two competing popes.
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:05 PM   #639
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IIRC infallibility does not mean the Pope is always right. It means that when he rules on certain kinds of doctrinal questions in a specifically legal manner that issue is settled.

The church does have precedent for multiple popes, there were several times with two competing popes.
The Western Schism (1378 to 1417 CE) was a entirely different situation - mainly it was more political then theological. Furthermore these are all Roman Popes which is considered the legitimate line.

Then there was the issue that the two Popes (later three Popes) of the Western Schism excommunicated each other; something that has already happen as Stp-Pope Clement XV has excommunicated Clp-Pope Leo X "for his lack of chastity, his apparent corruption of the papal election and selection of cardinals, and numerous other sins"

Given their differences it is easy to see Benedict XVI, Pius XII, and Pope Clement XV having issues with each other and one of the two "younger" Popes going off the rails and excommunicate Benedict XVI...like that is going to go over real well.
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Old 08-30-2018, 11:05 AM   #640
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Edit: InP China's used of nuclear weapons against Dp Japan should have mammoth political fallout (bad pun I know) as it directly violates the 1967 Outer Space Treaty up one side and down the other. and yes the other Earths would fall under this Treaty with the other celestial body clauses. InP China would have to be rabidly insane to even attempt something like this.
It wasn't just China, the Inp-USA and Russian Federation also launched nuclear weapons in response to the Nazis use of KKVs. The successful use of Weapons of Mass Destruction must be responded to, when it is possible to do so.

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The fact there are technically five Popes (St Hormisdas was the Pope from 20 July 514 to 6 Aug 523 in OTL so Fa-Earth likely has an equivalent) has got to be an utter nightmare from a theological standpoint. Which of the five "runs" the Catholic Church? Do rulings by "future" Popes have any bearing on what is viewed as heresy on the "younger" Earths? What do you do about the tools InP Earth has to produce "more accurate" Bibles?
No-one really agrees on the answers to this. All the various incarnations of the RCC are discussing it both in committee, and where possible, with each other over the radio.

In the specific case of the 'Pope' (Bishop of Rome) on Earth-5/Fantasy Earth, he is Pope Fabian II, a half-elf who is not so much the leader of a united Catholic Church of Rome, as the generally agreed-upon spokesman for the various Christian factions who think they should be lead from Rome. No Constantine, no Council of Nicea, no Universal Church. Lots and lots of factions, though. I think the search function of YouTube has a few vids on early Christian schisms, and the Extra History (Or is it Extra Credits) channel has a series with that name. Just imagine that more new schisms kept coming without Nicea, but the factions Fabian II represents are the ones who are not actually inclined to kill each other over it (partly because the Imperatores rather seriously objected, even - perhaps especially - after repealing most of the anti-Christian laws over the intervening centuries).

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It is safe to say that Aristotelian Cosmology is deader then the proverbial Dodo on Cp Earth as the destruction of the Moon showed that "Heaven" is not perfect and unchanging. The appearance of four other Earths three of which are in a future that odds are will never be and one of a past that never was is also going to be a theological migraine as all thoughts of a "set" future are gone.
Um, 'destruction of the Moon?' What? Did I make a typo somewhere, or are you misremembering the comet that broke up over Clockpunk Earth that started people getting powers on that Earth?
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