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Old 02-19-2019, 06:32 PM   #11
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Default Re: Iron Mountain

I would go with 2 strength 2 attacks on the treads, seeing as how the text says they think they got a couple of hits on the treads. But I do like the idea of resolving them as actual attacks rather than assuming that they were effective hits. That way the Ogre starts short 0, 2 or 4 treads rather than a blanket 4 treads.
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:35 PM   #12
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Default Re: Iron Mountain

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I'm not sure two plays is enough to make that call. How many times did you play the original version to come up with the 90% number?
It's my favorite Ogre scenario and it plays quickly so I've managed quite a few sessions of the 3rd edition version of the scenario (the one in the Ogre Book). I've even played the 1st edition version of the scenario (from the Space Gamer #12) using 1st edition rules and unit stats. In either version it's rare for the Ogre to win.

I know it might seem premature to raise the alarm on the basis of just a couple of plays but I think I have a sense of what it takes for the Ogre to have a decent shot at victory and it's falling a bit short (though I would love to see some session reports confirming or disputing that).

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I would go with 2 strength 2 attacks on the treads, seeing as how the text says they think they got a couple of hits on the treads
I don't think "a couple of hits" necessarily means two separate attacks. I find it somewhat improbable that a lone GEV, without support, made two successful attack runs on an Ogre and lived to tell about it.
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:40 PM   #13
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Default Re: Iron Mountain

Upthread I'd said we played twice on the new playmat. Both games the Ogre lost, once with five trucks escaping (the "accelerated" ones died), once with seven (we didn't accelerate any in that game). In neither game did the two regular HOW fire a single shot.
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Old 02-19-2019, 10:11 PM   #14
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Default Re: Iron Mountain

This is where I really wish custom units in the Steam version was possible...
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Old 02-19-2019, 10:11 PM   #15
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Default Re: Iron Mountain

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Upthread I'd said we played twice on the new playmat. Both games the Ogre lost, once with five trucks escaping (the "accelerated" ones died), once with seven (we didn't accelerate any in that game). In neither game did the two regular HOW fire a single shot.
I've had the same experience. Accelerated movement is very risky. It usually works against the convoy player if used en masse but it can be useful when used sparingly. I am kind of surprised the Ogre gave up before getting within the Howitzers' range. I usually save a missile or two in hope of getting in range of the trucks when they slow to pass the howitzers.
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Old 02-20-2019, 07:56 AM   #16
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Default Re: Iron Mountain

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Originally Posted by dsal View Post
I don't think "a couple of hits" necessarily means two separate attacks. I find it somewhat improbable that a lone GEV, without support, made two successful attack runs on an Ogre and lived to tell about it.
Based on the text, which also specifies that they exchanged a couple shots with the Ogre, here's my take on what happened. The GEV spots the Ogre and does a high-speed pass shooting as it goes. This is when the Ogre gets a near-hit on it and takes out the radio, etc. The GEV peels around because it has to get the word back, and takes one more shot as it shoots past the Ogre again, this time heading for the convoy. The Ogre is now in pursuit, and we get Iron Mountain.

Another thought I had is the possibility that the Ogre had already encountered one of the other GEV patrols that are implied to be out there, and was now looking for another to try and triangulate where they were based out of. After all, I would have expected that if there were other GEVs out there, they would have radioed to try and get them to come back and help - but there are no reinforcements, so either there's no way to contact them, or they're already dead...

Either way, while the 4 treads may be more than it can overcome much of the time, it's also at least plausible, hence my suggestion of 2 strength 2 attacks and not just one. At 1-1 odds, it's still only a 11% chance of getting both of them to hit, whereas there's a 44% chance of either 0 or 2 treads lost.
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:22 AM   #17
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Default Re: Iron Mountain

OK, a couple of scenario rules questions:

1) Rule 8 says 'When a Truck is destroyed ("X" result) [...]' - what about a truck destroyed by receiving 2 D results. Since these are armored trucks, they can be disabled and are thus subject to the D-on-D=X formula. But a second D is not an actual X, it just has the same result under normal conditions.

2) Rule 4 says "Thus, you may shove units into turnouts or off the cliff (in which case they are immediately destroyed)." Do trucks destroyed this way explode like an X result? After all, it does so in the story. Perhaps you roll to see if it does (1-1 attack, with an X indicating an explosion)? Or does the cliff provide sufficient protection from the blast (whereas one on the road has no such protection)?

3) Rule 9 has Ogres that ram trucks taking a strength 2 attack on the treads. That implies the truck blows up, but I'm guessing it's not the same which is why there's no spillover?

4) Per Battle Box Rules 7.05.1, AP weapons can only fire on one group of INF once per turn. Rule 10 specifies the Trucks can be attacked with AP guns. Does the one attack by AP per Truck per turn rule apply, or does that only apply to INF? Or can multiple attacks be made on a single Truck by AP?

5) Rule 11 specifies only 1/2 of an Ogre's weapons can fire on any one target. Does "target" mean the target of any given attack, or does it mean a specific unit? E.g., can the Ogre fire 1 MB at a target, miss, and then fire the other? Or does it have to fire a different type of weapon at the target it missed? If the latter, that may be a reasonable answer to Q4 in lieu of 7.05.1.

OK, that's all I can think of. :)
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:10 PM   #18
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Default Re: Iron Mountain

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OK, a couple of scenario rules questions:
I'll take a stab at answering those. These are just my opinions. I going to answer them out of order.

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2) Rule 4 says "Thus, you may shove units into turnouts or off the cliff (in which case they are immediately destroyed)." Do trucks destroyed this way explode like an X result? After all, it does so in the story. Perhaps you roll to see if it does (1-1 attack, with an X indicating an explosion)? Or does the cliff provide sufficient protection from the blast (whereas one on the road has no such protection)?
Based on the story it would appear that the truck will explode but the height of the cliff provides protection against the blast (so it does not trigger Rule 8). See also my answer to the next question.

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1) Rule 8 says 'When a Truck is destroyed ("X" result) [...]' - what about a truck destroyed by receiving 2 D results. Since these are armored trucks, they can be disabled and are thus subject to the D-on-D=X formula. But a second D is not an actual X, it just has the same result under normal conditions.
The text of Rule 8 hasn’t changed since 1977 so I suspect it was just poorly worded. I can’t see any reason why a temporarily disabled truck would be any less explosive than an undamaged one. It’s possible they were trying to make a distinction between trucks destroyed in combat (which explode) vs. trucks destroyed by being shoved off a cliff (which wouldn’t technically be an “X” result since it doesn’t require consulting a CRT).

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3) Rule 9 has Ogres that ram trucks taking a strength 2 attack on the treads. That implies the truck blows up, but I'm guessing it's not the same which is why there's no spillover?
If the intent of the rule was that only the Ogre is effected that may be because the Ogre is practically on top of the truck when it explodes, effectively shielding other units from the explosion.

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4) Per Battle Box Rules 7.05.1, AP weapons can only fire on one group of INF once per turn. Rule 10 specifies the Trucks can be attacked with AP guns. Does the one attack by AP per Truck per turn rule apply, or does that only apply to INF? Or can multiple attacks be made on a single Truck by AP
Rule 7.05.1 acknowledges that AP weapons may be used against “targets with a defense of 0, and other targets as designated in scenarios” but is very specific when it says “a unit may not fire AP at the same infantry unit more than once per fire phase”. So, I would say the restriction is specific to infantry and excludes other legal targets for AP weapons.

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5) Rule 11 specifies only 1/2 of an Ogre's weapons can fire on any one target. Does "target" mean the target of any given attack, or does it mean a specific unit? E.g., can the Ogre fire 1 MB at a target, miss, and then fire the other? Or does it have to fire a different type of weapon at the target it missed? If the latter, that may be a reasonable answer to Q4 in lieu of 7.05.1.
If the rule is a “per attack” restriction the Ogre could fire all of it weapons at a single target in a single turn but would have to do this as two separate attacks (each using no more than ½ of each type of weapon).

If the rule is a “per target” restriction the Ogre can make as many attacks as it wishes against a single target so long as the total number of weapons used does not exceed ½ of each type of weapon.

In either case the Ogre is not limited in how many targets it can engage.

I’ve always gone with the latter ("per target") interpretation.
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Old 02-21-2019, 07:55 AM   #19
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Default Re: Iron Mountain

I mostly concur with your interpretations, but I agree we need an official ruling (which is why I asked). My one possible disagreement is on the "X" question for Rule 8, as I can see it going either way. Since an X denotes a direct hit vs a D being a near miss, a D+D kill implies that it's a case of sufficient cumulative damage to render the unit effectively dead, rather than blowing it up. So I can see a reason for limiting detonations to a pure X result, whereas a D+D just means that the truck is trashed without a catastrophic effect on the contents. But I can also see the argument for "shake it too many times and it goes boom," which is why it cooks off when tossed over a cliff...
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Old 02-21-2019, 03:53 PM   #20
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Default Re: Iron Mountain

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My one possible disagreement is on the "X" question for Rule 8, as I can see it going either way. Since an X denotes a direct hit vs a D being a near miss, a D+D kill implies that it's a case of sufficient cumulative damage to render the unit effectively dead, rather than blowing it up
I don’t think D+D=X is necessarily the result of cumulative damage. More likely, it’s the result of a disabled unit not being able to evade an attack (after all, a disabled unit can’t move). In other words, what would normally have been a near miss becomes a hit.

Also keep in mind that disabled units return to normal in just a couple of turns. How could a “half-destroyed” unit repair itself in just 8 minutes? I think the rulebook refers to these units as “recovered” rather than “repaired”.

Another reason I don’t think it represents cumulative damage: there is no limit on the number of times a unit can be disabled in a single scenario. Theoretically, a unit could get disabled every other turn for the length of the game.
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