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Old 10-10-2018, 10:06 PM   #131
JLV
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
I was thinking about this too and for some reason, it bothers me. Is it right or realistic (and I know that is a loaded term) to have no limits whatsoever on the talents and spells that a character can aquire? Shouldn't it get more difficult to learn new things at a certain point? Why wouldn't costs go up eventually?
Personally, I think they SHOULD go up -- based on the IQ level of the talent you are seeking to learn, and I've said so repeatedly in these threads since Steve first promulgated the new rules.

But, in regard to your first sentence, roleplaying places (or at least should place) limits on what you can learn -- you should need to find someone to teach you those talents you want to learn. No one learns to fence on their own; someone has to show them the rudiments at least of the skill before they can actually learn it, and no one becomes a blacksmith on their own for the same reasons. You might learn to physically ride a horse on your own, but even there, having someone teach you the rest of the skills you need (to care for the horse) still requires someone else to help.
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:45 AM   #132
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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But, in regard to your first sentence, roleplaying places (or at least should place) limits on what you can learn -- you should need to find someone to teach you those talents you want to learn. No one learns to fence on their own; someone has to show them the rudiments at least of the skill before they can actually learn it, and no one becomes a blacksmith on their own for the same reasons. You might learn to physically ride a horse on your own, but even there, having someone teach you the rest of the skills you need (to care for the horse) still requires someone else to help.
Exactly. Spells can be book-learnt, but very few talents can, especially in a medieval world. Apprenticing or squiring is one of the only ways to learn certain talents. And one doesn't become a Priest or a Theologian without some participation in religious institutions. Talents shouldn't just be video game unlocks, they should be something players actually have to seek out a teacher for. Even some comparatively minor talents might be hard to learn if there is no one in the region to pass along the knowledge. Seeking out a teacher for a desired skill can be a quest unto itself.
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:20 AM   #133
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

Do you temporarily retire the character while he treks up the mountain to go train with some monks for a few years or do you do training inline with the adventure?
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:13 AM   #134
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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Originally Posted by Shadekeep View Post
Exactly. Spells can be book-learnt, but very few talents can, especially in a medieval world. Apprenticing or squiring is one of the only ways to learn certain talents. And one doesn't become a Priest or a Theologian without some participation in religious institutions. Talents shouldn't just be video game unlocks, they should be something players actually have to seek out a teacher for. Even some comparatively minor talents might be hard to learn if there is no one in the region to pass along the knowledge. Seeking out a teacher for a desired skill can be a quest unto itself.
Absolutely agree. Each GM and group can handle it as they like, but removing mention of logical training methods from the book seems unfortunate, especially for the newer players.


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Do you temporarily retire the character while he treks up the mountain to go train with some monks for a few years or do you do training inline with the adventure?
Whatever works and seems best for the game situation, and how important it is for the character to learn the talent. I've done both, with the same characters in the same campaigns, to fit what's going on and what people want to do.
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:23 AM   #135
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

I could actually see 80-90% of the Talents as being self-taught or learned through the course of adventuring and practicing on one's own.

Spells are an entirely different story.

EDIT
I agree with Skarg's post just above mine. He posted while I was writing this one. This post was more of a response to Shadekeep's and Hcobb's posts. I mostly disagree with Shadekeep's.

Last edited by platimus; 10-11-2018 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 10-11-2018, 01:42 PM   #136
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Steve's original errata for ITL

Clarification (this is supposed to be under Talents, but I can't find it. Possibly I omitted it from the final draft.) "It takes a minimum of 3 months of study to add a talent requiring 1 IQ point. A 2-point talent takes 6 months, a 3-point talent 9 months. These times double for wizards."

Characters were supposed to have jobs and jobs allowed time for training. Adventuring was "in between time" when you could get away or you quit your job. It was assumed that you MIGHT continue practicing/studying a future Talent while adventuring, but my GM did not count that time towards study unless someone in your party had the Talent you were studying.

I agree that the same concept needs to be added in the new ITL.
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Old 10-11-2018, 02:05 PM   #137
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What sort of study is needed for "Toughness"?

Why doesn't swinging your sword while adventuring make you better with "Swords"?

80-90% of the Talents could be self-taught and learned through experience (while adventuring or practicing between adventures)

Yes, something like Chemist, Alchemy, Physicker, etc. needs to have a teacher, school, or book of some sort to learn from.
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:52 PM   #138
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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Originally Posted by Helborn View Post
Steve's original errata for ITL

Clarification (this is supposed to be under Talents, but I can't find it. Possibly I omitted it from the final draft.) "It takes a minimum of 3 months of study to add a talent requiring 1 IQ point. A 2-point talent takes 6 months, a 3-point talent 9 months. These times double for wizards."

Characters were supposed to have jobs and jobs allowed time for training. Adventuring was "in between time" when you could get away or you quit your job. It was assumed that you MIGHT continue practicing/studying a future Talent while adventuring, but my GM did not count that time towards study unless someone in your party had the Talent you were studying.

I agree that the same concept needs to be added in the new ITL.
Yes!

We didn't see that errata back in the 1980's, but it was clear some amount of time was involved, so the GM had to rule how much.



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What sort of study is needed for "Toughness"?
THE WHEEL OF PAIN!

Er, or how about training with someone who has the talent and/or knows how to train it? As in, fight training by someone who emphasizes dodging and rolling with blows.

Really though, in the absence of an official list, for each talent, the GM is left having to rule what is reasonable. Some might say just having the XP and prereqs are enough, some might say a 1 or more years of combat/adventure experience per point is enough, and another might also want you to train with someone.


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Originally Posted by platimus View Post
Why doesn't swinging your sword while adventuring make you better with "Swords"?
It does if you don't already know the Sword talent. Again, without rules for each talent, the GM's opinion might vary as above from "anyone can become an expert or master with enough XP" to having it be much harder or even impossible without an expert or master trainer.


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Originally Posted by platimus View Post
80-90% of the Talents could be self-taught and learned through experience (while adventuring or practicing between adventures)
Perhaps. Some of them probably usually are (carousing, brawling, sex appeal...), but perhaps most would be much easier with a good teacher, and some are nearly impossible without the right situation/materials (horsemanship, swimming, chemistry/alchemy). Some of them make a lot more sense to be able to study while adventuring than others.
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Old 10-11-2018, 05:24 PM   #139
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
What sort of study is needed for "Toughness"?

Why doesn't swinging your sword while adventuring make you better with "Swords"?

80-90% of the Talents could be self-taught and learned through experience (while adventuring or practicing between adventures)

Yes, something like Chemist, Alchemy, Physicker, etc. needs to have a teacher, school, or book of some sort to learn from.

You might get better at SWINGING a sword but might not get any better at USING a sword.

We had a visitor one day at our dojo who proudly announced that he had spent 17 years in his training. When he left I overheard the sensei comment to his assistant, "It is so sad to see someone who has repeated the same year 17 times."

Without taking time for training, or, at least, patterning yourself on someone who has training and who is willing to share his knowledge, you won't get very far.

In TFT higher skill levels are reflected in higher ST, DX and IQ. That's why I'm still thinking about these new multi level talents that only add quantitative benefits rather than qualitative benefits. While we had Warrior and Veteran, and Tactics and Strategy, which were quantitative, the difference between Physicker and Master Physicker was, and is, much more than healing one more HP.
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Old 10-11-2018, 05:30 PM   #140
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
It does if you don't already know the Sword talent. Again, without rules for each talent, the GM's opinion might vary as above from "anyone can become an expert or master with enough XP" to having it be much harder or even impossible without an expert or master trainer.

Perhaps. Some of them probably usually are (carousing, brawling, sex appeal...), but perhaps most would be much easier with a good teacher, and some are nearly impossible without the right situation/materials (horsemanship, swimming, chemistry/alchemy). Some of them make a lot more sense to be able to study while adventuring than others.
I disagree on the Sword talents. The more you use it, the better you get at it. You can learn it without a teacher. Who taught the first teacher?

Second paragraph raises a good point. If you have a teacher for carousing, brawling, etc. maybe you can learn them faster/easier (less XP).

Need a teacher for Horsemanship, Swimming, Chemistry, and Alchemy? Yes, except for swimming. You don't need a teacher to learn to swim.

The other great point you raised is that's all up to the GM.

By the way, here's the description for Toughness:
"Years of combat experience have made you
hard to hit, and you know how to take a blow."
Seems pretty clear you don't need a teacher (other than the school of hard knocks).

EDIT
Skarg, I think I misunderstood you on Swords. Yes, one's first lesson in Swords should come from a teacher. After that, one can further their skill one's own (Sword Expert/Master).

Last edited by platimus; 10-11-2018 at 07:57 PM.
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