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Old 06-21-2018, 06:16 AM   #11
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Default Re: Weapons 100+ years after the end?

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Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2 View Post
If chemistry texts survive, then smokeless powder (either modern formulations or a reasonable substitute) will be available. Mercury fulminate will probably be less available, so will probably be replaced by piezoelectric crystals (which will make quartz deposits valuable). What will be gone is TL8 precision machining, which will knock guns back to mid-TL7, and make automatics less desirable and revolvers more desirable.
Worth noting that early Maxim MGs (the first modern MGs) used black powder. And there are the earlier hand-cranked machine guns like the Gatling and Nordenfeldt.
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:34 AM   #12
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Default Re: Weapons 100+ years after the end?

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Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2 View Post
If chemistry texts survive, then smokeless powder (either modern formulations or a reasonable substitute) will be available. Mercury fulminate will probably be less available
Mercury fulminate predates smokeless powder, so I don't know why you would make smokeless powder but not make some kind of fulminate primer. I don't know enough about the chemistry of the primers to guess whether it's easier to make simple mercury fulminate, one of the corrosive upgrades of it, or one of the non-lead and/or non-corrosive upgrades. Part of that might depend on where the bottleneck in production is: corrosive primers cut into your effective weapon production by requiring replacement barrels sooner, but that might not be a concern if you have a factory producing weapons faster than you need. Certainly if you're making pseudo-Winchester M1873s, mercury fulminate primers are sufficient for your black powder cartridges

Does anyone use piezoelectric crystals for small arm ammunition? I guess it's no different that a piezoelectric camp stove, and certainly not having to mess with mercury fulminate simplifies the supply chain a lot, but is this something that anyone has actually done?
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:48 AM   #13
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Default Re: Weapons 100+ years after the end?

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
Mercury fulminate predates smokeless powder, so I don't know why you would make smokeless powder but not make some kind of fulminate primer.
Getting the materials may well be the problem. An under-appreciated aspect of post-apocalypse settings is the inability to get many materials we regard as commonplace, because of the collapse of long-distance trade networks.
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Old 06-21-2018, 11:07 AM   #14
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Default Re: Weapons 100+ years after the end?

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Hello everyone, longtime lurker (and player), first time poster here. Basically what I am wondering is what the weapons would be 100 years or so (4-5 generations) after the end? By then, would not most pre-end weapons (bar those hidden or very well cared for) not be useful, either due to their deteriorated condition or lack of smokeless ammunition? That would mean that black powder would be back I guess. But would the weapons most use be flintlocks or would they have gone on to breech loaders or bolt actions by then?

Similarly, I am trying to also figure out the armament for a warlord mini empire (controlling about 100,000 miles, though most of that is likely not cultivated and with a population I am unsure of) . I figure they are about TL5 and are decently equipped at that level, having a few factories to produce weapons/ammunition needed. With that in mind, what would be appropriate to equip them with? Rifled muskets (with or without percussion caps) perhaps? Or would a breech loader like the Martini be better? Alternatively, I was thinking something like a Winchester '73 if only to share ammunition with a replica Colt Peacemaker. Bar the weapons, I figure support elements will be some cavalry, a few artillery batteries and weapons like mortars.

Really, and help in figuring this out would be appreciated.
There is a whole article on this in Pyramid #3/88.

The only thing I would add is that some of the double-action revolvers and howdah pistols from GURPS Adventure Guns might be better choices than Colts in a world of crazy spray-painted, spiked-cycle-driving, die-hard road warriors. The cool kids will have TL 6+ designs with iffy ammunition though!
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Old 06-21-2018, 12:10 PM   #15
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Default Re: Weapons 100+ years after the end?

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Getting the materials may well be the problem. An under-appreciated aspect of post-apocalypse settings is the inability to get many materials we regard as commonplace, because of the collapse of long-distance trade networks.
Not only that, but the "easy to get to" stuff has already been mined out. A lot of modern chemistry binds materials in such a way that a post apocalyptic world may be very resource poor. Particularly if cities are irradiated death traps.
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Old 06-21-2018, 12:41 PM   #16
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Modern guns will generally be serviceable after 100 years, assuming they haven't been used too heavily. Some parts like springs or wooden stocks may have been replaced, but the guns in general should be fine.[1]
And, assuming that they're good quality firearms to begin with, and that they're rigorously cleaned after use and stored properly.

Junk guns will die quickly. Guns which are misused by someone who doesn't know proper gun maintenance or which are exposed to the elements for any significant period of time will quickly be reduced to junk.

So, plenty of "caveat emptor" for buyers of pre-collapse guns!

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
Ammo production might be a problem for modern cartridges like 5.56mm that really want high performance powders, but manual action shotguns will fire with black powder as will most revolvers. And making smokeless powder and primers isn't incredibly hard, since it was historically done with 1860s and 1870s levels of technology. They may not be as good or as non-corrosive as modern designs, and they may spontaneously detonate during production or if you store them too long, but something that will fire out of a .30-06 and has a shelf-life of 6 months is almost certainly doable.
Three potential problems with restarting a TL5-7 modern style firearms industry:

1) Lack of trained workers. Depending on how bad the death toll was skilled machinists of any sort might be thin on the ground and certain skills might essentially be lost until some bright spark reinvents them.

2) Lack of good fuels. Part of the reason that industrialization went so well the first time around is because there was plenty of high quality fossil fuel literally coming out of the ground. Early oil wells were founded where there were oil seeps from petroleum deposits close to the surface. Likewise, early coal mining operations mined coal from exposed faces first. These days, most of the cheap and easily obtainable fossil fuels are long gone, which partially explains extreme extraction techniques such as off-shore drilling, mountaintop removal mining, and fracking.

It's possible that someone could revive an existing TL8 mining operation using TL5-7 technology, but production would be much lower, in part due to problem #1.

3) Lack of good metals. The same problems regarding fossil fuels also apply to high quality, easily-mined metal ores. Admittedly, there's plenty of certain metals which could be recycled, but that implies that there are large stockpiles of decent quality scrap which isn't radioactive or guarded by spiky-haired mutant cannibals.

In some cases, extracting new metals from old sites will effectively amount to a death sentence for mine workers due to lingering heavy metal pollution or worse (e.g., Pilcher, OK or Libby, MT).

That said, it's not unreasonable to assume that firearm technology bounces back to low TL5 (flintlock muskets) within just a few years after a crash, even with a relatively low-skilled, sparse population of survivors. Crossbows would be simpler and cheaper to make initially, and almost as easy to use as firearms, but guns would still survive for certain applications.

I've also heard that .22 long rifle rimfire cartridges can pretty much be reloaded indefinitely and it's an extremely popular cartridge type. At least for a couple of generations, there will be a steady market in reloading ammo, assuming that getting good quality brass and brass machining technology is a problem, but making simple explosives like nitrocellulose isn't.
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Old 06-21-2018, 03:40 PM   #17
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Default Re: Weapons 100+ years after the end?

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Getting the materials may well be the problem. An under-appreciated aspect of post-apocalypse settings is the inability to get many materials we regard as commonplace, because of the collapse of long-distance trade networks.
THIS is the reason. The apocalypse's main problem will not be loss of knowledge or skill, it will be loss of resources. Our global economy allows us access to everything. Without access to the distribution networks we take for granted, all we have is what's in a day or two walking distance. And there's only so much we can salvage.
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Old 06-21-2018, 04:56 PM   #18
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Default Re: Weapons 100+ years after the end?

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
Does anyone use piezoelectric crystals for small arm ammunition? I guess it's no different that a piezoelectric camp stove, and certainly not having to mess with mercury fulminate simplifies the supply chain a lot, but is this something that anyone has actually done?
I've a setting where such weapons exist, but I'm unaware of anyone actually making them IRL. My experience with piezoelectric lighters is that they tend toward low reliability (although fortunately such a malfunction simply requires pulling the trigger again... and sometimes again and again...), and that's with gas that's probably more easily inflammable then gunpowder, but that may just be a function of using rather cheap lighters.

I wouldn't really expect anyone to bother making such, of course, as it's really a variant on electrical ignition, and using a battery or similar is probably more reliable.
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Old 06-21-2018, 05:01 PM   #19
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Default Re: Weapons 100+ years after the end?

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Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2 View Post
Without access to the distribution networks we take for granted, all we have is what's in a day or two walking distance. And there's only so much we can salvage.
Actually a low TL (1-4) has access to more than just a "day or two's travel", but yes, one isn't getting rare earths from China transported into the US in a post-apoc setting.

Depending on TL and how well communities can create and maintain trade networks, you could have trade networks spanning large areas of the US (for example), even from coast to coast.
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Old 06-21-2018, 05:24 PM   #20
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Default Re: Weapons 100+ years after the end?

TL 4 is about as high a technology that can be sustained without large populations connected by an extensive trading network. While any modern firearm that was stored properly will survive centuries, the acidic quality of modern propellents will eat away at the barrel and firing mechanisms of most regularly used rifled firearms within a couple of decades, even with proper cleaning. Homemade ammunition, with homemade propellents, will only accelerate the process.

Smoothbore weapons have more tolerance, but regular use will still cause degradation of the barrel and firing mechanisms within a few decades. In addition, the casing of ammunition can only be reused so often before the acidic nature of the propellents cause them to weaken to the point where they are useless. Unless you have modern industry to provide replacement parts and replacements casings, modern weapons will break down long before a century passes with regular use.

Now, a lucky warlord could have stumbled on a secret armory (corporate, government, or private), that was forgotten because a biological weapon killed everyone who knew about it. With proper storage, you could have enough weapons and ammunition for a modern infantry division survive for centuries before decay compromised everything. The food and medicine would be worthless, as would the tires and fuel for the vehicles, but the ammunitions, armor, weapons, etc might be functional.

Imagine a party of PCs who finds such a treasure. A recent landslide broke open the outer door, revealing a sealed but unlocked inner door. They open the inner door to the sealed armory and find tens of thousands of prestige weapons with hundreds of millions of rounds of ammunition. What will they do with their discovery and who can they trust to pay them a fraction of its value?
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